Episode 2
How should controversial historical figures be taught?
☕️ Say thanks with a cup of coffee 😁
Jenn talks about her very first time filming a historical location and why she decided to choose someone as controversial as Nathan Bedford Forrest.
A statue dedicated to him was taken down in December of 2017, from the center of Memphis, Tennessee. Was it taken down the right way? What SHOULD be the way those kinds of statues are removed...should they be removed? How difficult is it for historians to see figures with terrible acts in their past in an objective light?
Nathan Bedford Forrest and His History
-------------------------------------------------------
⬇️ Help us keep the show going and explore history with us! ⬇️
🧳 Get free travel resources in your inbox.
-------------------------------------------------------
📧 contact: talkwithhistory@gmail.com
Transcript
[Music]
Speaker:greetings and welcome to the talk with
Speaker:History Podcast I am your host Scott and
Speaker:I'm here with my wife and historian Jen
Speaker:on this podcast we talk about
Speaker:history's continuing impact on all of us
Speaker:and our personal Journey even me and Jen
Speaker:through YouTube is we kind of go out
Speaker:with a family and explore and we record
Speaker:and we share our history walks with our
Speaker:subscribers and our community and the
Speaker:walk with history community so
Speaker:um so Jen what are we what are we
Speaker:talking today on the talk with History
Speaker:Podcast So today we're going to cover
Speaker:our very first video on walk with
Speaker:history okay so what was what was that
Speaker:what was our very first video that we
Speaker:made once you kind of recap that for
Speaker:anyone who hasn't seen it so the very
Speaker:first video for walk with history on
Speaker:YouTube is Nathan Bedford Forrest and
Speaker:we're going to talk about why he was the
Speaker:first video and
Speaker:then get into
Speaker:the man himself so okay
Speaker:before we do that I have a very
Speaker:important question okay why was Forrest
Speaker:Gump named after Nathan Bedford Forest
Speaker:because a lot of people don't realize
Speaker:that in the movie Forrest Gump that's
Speaker:who he's named after I think she says to
Speaker:remind him that sometimes people do
Speaker:things that just don't make no sense
Speaker:that's what she says right that's right
Speaker:yeah that's what she says yeah and I
Speaker:think
Speaker:and they're related to him right aren't
Speaker:they like distantly related to him and
Speaker:she wanted to name him after that to
Speaker:remind him that people do things
Speaker:sometimes that just don't make no sense
Speaker:like those are her words yeah and and I
Speaker:bring that up because I think that kind
Speaker:of ties that thread like you like to say
Speaker:ties through why you did yes
Speaker:to walk with history on on Nathan
Speaker:Bedford 4 so tell us how why that was
Speaker:our
Speaker:first one okay and kind of where that
Speaker:came from sure so we had just moved to
Speaker:Memphis in July of 2016.
Speaker:and
Speaker:Memphis was completely new for us so
Speaker:Scott is from California born and raised
Speaker:did some college in Maryland and then I
Speaker:am from all over but never the South
Speaker:even though I was born in North Carolina
Speaker:which is
Speaker:is the South but I was only there for
Speaker:two years and then we quickly moved to
Speaker:Hawaii and Wyoming and Pennsylvania
Speaker:so when we both moved to Memphis in July
Speaker:of 2016 we were really surrounded by a
Speaker:different culture
Speaker:and I wanted to start a Facebook page
Speaker:called walk with history for my family
Speaker:and and for your family and for our
Speaker:friends
Speaker:so we could kind of teach them about the
Speaker:history of Memphis and the surrounding
Speaker:areas that none of us really had been
Speaker:a privy to before so that was the whole
Speaker:point and the first video I did was
Speaker:Nathan Bedford Forrest and it's because
Speaker:of his statue that was right in the
Speaker:middle of the city of Memphis so I
Speaker:thought that would we would drive by it
Speaker:and we had no clue who he was until we
Speaker:lived in Memphis and we had no clue what
Speaker:even statue that was until we had to ask
Speaker:people and then we were like well who is
Speaker:this guy and why does he have a statue
Speaker:in the middle of Memphis and so that was
Speaker:really the emphasis of that video to
Speaker:kind of explain who he was why is the
Speaker:Statue here
Speaker:and what does it mean for the city
Speaker:yeah yeah and I think that's one of the
Speaker:cool things that a lot of people who've
Speaker:only seen walk with history the YouTube
Speaker:channel don't know is that was
Speaker:four or five years before we ever
Speaker:started walk with history on on YouTube
Speaker:right you just literally just grabbed
Speaker:your phone vertical video which drove me
Speaker:crazy yes and posted it up you made a
Speaker:Facebook page and you posted it up and
Speaker:you shared it with a bunch of friends
Speaker:and they thought it was interesting and
Speaker:all of a sudden you had all these
Speaker:friends like oh my gosh can I be part of
Speaker:this Facebook page and
Speaker:you you started Gathering like a mini
Speaker:following there I think you know I think
Speaker:today where there's a couple hundred not
Speaker:as many as the YouTube channel but
Speaker:there was interest there yes and
Speaker:videoing it vertically was a challenge
Speaker:then trying to make it our first YouTube
Speaker:video because we had to try to make that
Speaker:video that vertical video into a
Speaker:horizontal video for that first
Speaker:YouTube video but we I felt it was
Speaker:important to revisit
Speaker:that because in the last five years from
Speaker:the time I had done the original video
Speaker:to when we had done the YouTube video
Speaker:things had changed so what what things
Speaker:had changed um since I think you did the
Speaker:vertical the original video just the
Speaker:original walk in 2016. So what had
Speaker:changed between then and when we started
Speaker:well the statue had been removed that's
Speaker:right and there was still
Speaker:there was still talk because what the
Speaker:the interesting thing about the Nathan
Speaker:bedford's Forest statue is he's actually
Speaker:buried underneath it and his wife is
Speaker:buried underneath it so that caused a
Speaker:lot of
Speaker:difficulties because you had to also
Speaker:remove a grave and change a grave so
Speaker:there was a lot of legal proceedings
Speaker:that went with that so the statue had
Speaker:been removed for a long time the
Speaker:pedestal
Speaker:had not so I wanted to update viewers on
Speaker:what had happened since then and what
Speaker:was going to happen to the Statue and to
Speaker:the the bodies of Nathan Bedford Forrest
Speaker:and his wife yeah and and just to kind
Speaker:of reset the context of the scene is in
Speaker:2016 the video or the statue was still
Speaker:up there right you're going there and
Speaker:there was some stuff on the ground I
Speaker:think it was some black lives matter
Speaker:stuff that was on the ground that wasn't
Speaker:there until no that wasn't until later
Speaker:yeah in 2016 there was nothing yeah so
Speaker:in 2016 you did the original video the
Speaker:statue was up there and then fast
Speaker:forward a couple years when nationally
Speaker:there was a the black lives matter
Speaker:movement had kind of surfaced or
Speaker:resurfaced yes and statues all around
Speaker:the country specifically largely through
Speaker:the South for obvious reasons
Speaker:um Civil War era statues they people had
Speaker:been taking them down or arguing to take
Speaker:them down and all of a sudden Nathan
Speaker:Bedford Forest yes
Speaker:be gain Center Attention Center Stage in
Speaker:the Memphis area so tell us about Nathan
Speaker:Bedford Forest and kind of Briefly
Speaker:summarize
Speaker:who he was and what people did know or
Speaker:didn't know about him so he's a
Speaker:the confusing and interesting
Speaker:person first of all his statue is right
Speaker:in the middle of Memphis like rape
Speaker:beside Sun Studio so if you know
Speaker:anything about Memphis in the history of
Speaker:Memphis it's really known for its music
Speaker:history Sun Studios where Elvis Presley
Speaker:was originally recorded and that's what
Speaker:Johnny Cash did a lot of his recording
Speaker:so you can see the statue from Sun
Speaker:Studio so it was a very prominent statue
Speaker:in the city
Speaker:he was
Speaker:a slave trader and being a student of
Speaker:American history and getting my Master's
Speaker:in American history
Speaker:at the University of Memphis using that
Speaker:term slave trader
Speaker:comes under a lot of controversy because
Speaker:that term kind of equates to an equal
Speaker:trade of Commodities and when you're
Speaker:talking about trafficking people and
Speaker:selling people there really is no
Speaker:equality of commodity there so it really
Speaker:downplays
Speaker:what is really happening in that
Speaker:situation so I don't I might switch back
Speaker:and forth with my verbiage saying human
Speaker:trafficker or slave trader
Speaker:just so you understand really what he is
Speaker:doing so he what's he best known for I
Speaker:bet he's known for a couple things
Speaker:the slave trading he makes his millions
Speaker:in that then he becomes a confederate
Speaker:general in the Civil War right and
Speaker:that's what the statue depicted the
Speaker:statute depicted him on a horse in his
Speaker:Civil War uniform and he is a general of
Speaker:the Calgary in Tennessee and he is for
Speaker:all intents and purposes he is a good
Speaker:General in the fact that he is evasive
Speaker:and unable to be captured and can make a
Speaker:really strong fight and for those
Speaker:reasons Grant has a famous line that is
Speaker:called that that devil Forest because he
Speaker:was hard to capture and hard to overcome
Speaker:of course he never ends up winning you
Speaker:know the Civil War is not one so he
Speaker:comes back to Tennessee and starts to
Speaker:make his way in the railroad industry
Speaker:and then he is known for being the first
Speaker:Grand wizard of the Klu Klux Klan so
Speaker:he's not known and that's what they
Speaker:depict in Forrest Gump and that's what
Speaker:they depict and that's really where the
Speaker:controversy came out in the 2019 time
Speaker:frame when all those statues were
Speaker:getting torn down that was the focus on
Speaker:the public and the media in the Memphis
Speaker:Area even I remember not being a history
Speaker:guy it was all over the news yes and
Speaker:that was the focus right it was Nathan
Speaker:Bedford Forrest the the first Grand
Speaker:Master of the Ku Klux Klan yes grand
Speaker:wizard Grand wizard um
Speaker:but there's a lot of context that the
Speaker:news and media doesn't give so that's
Speaker:that's what I said it's confusing he was
Speaker:not a originator of the Klu Klux Klan he
Speaker:did not start the Ku Klux Klan that was
Speaker:start it started in Polansky
Speaker:um Tennessee which is about I would say
Speaker:two hours to the east of Memphis and
Speaker:it's it's well documented there
Speaker:um the people who actually started the
Speaker:clan and then even
Speaker:there is no real direct
Speaker:documentation that shows him as the
Speaker:grand wizard there's a account
Speaker:of him being in a hotel in Nashville
Speaker:where a hotel room where they had
Speaker:gathered for a clan meeting and they had
Speaker:elected him the first Grand Wizard and
Speaker:someone gives that account now I don't
Speaker:think
Speaker:Forest ever
Speaker:um verifies that and agrees with that
Speaker:I do think that he was there is accounts
Speaker:that he is definitely evolved involved
Speaker:in the clan
Speaker:the clan had a different kind of
Speaker:beginning than what we think of it today
Speaker:it really was at first to stop
Speaker:Northerners coming down south and taking
Speaker:southern land and taking Southern jobs
Speaker:and so to push the carpetbaggers back
Speaker:but it was always violent and that's
Speaker:that was their means of stopping people
Speaker:and then then it definitely turned into
Speaker:a racial violence but you get
Speaker:Forest testifying at one point that he
Speaker:that some African-American men had been
Speaker:lynched and he said that him himself
Speaker:would go out with the party to catch the
Speaker:lynchers
Speaker:so I am I'm not arguing for or against
Speaker:forest in any way I have no ties to
Speaker:Forest or the area I always feel like an
Speaker:interloper when I talk about stuff like
Speaker:this because I am I'm definitely feel
Speaker:like a Yankee
Speaker:but I do want all the information out
Speaker:there because this was the confusing
Speaker:part for me
Speaker:learning about him as a student of
Speaker:American History at the University of
Speaker:Memphis is there was definitely things
Speaker:on both sides that I could see and
Speaker:I knew that he had done terrible things
Speaker:but I also in the end he gives a speech
Speaker:at a pallbearers Association
Speaker:in in favor of African Americans and
Speaker:African-American education and he's
Speaker:actually presented Flowers by an
Speaker:African-American woman and he kisses her
Speaker:on the cheek now I have professors that
Speaker:feel that that was all part of a scheme
Speaker:to get Workers for his railroad business
Speaker:but there's no verification of that so
Speaker:those are the things you have to you
Speaker:have to worry about as a historian is
Speaker:you can't just I think it was this well
Speaker:is there a document that said we that
Speaker:Forrest said I did this because I really
Speaker:just wanted people to come work for my
Speaker:Railroad
Speaker:it unless you have those things you're
Speaker:really just guessing as a historian yeah
Speaker:and I think
Speaker:from my perspective is watching you go
Speaker:through your graduate education and
Speaker:watching you learn about these things
Speaker:and you coming home and talking to me
Speaker:about them
Speaker:you know I started hearing this and I
Speaker:had the initial reaction that probably
Speaker:most people do and the people listening
Speaker:to this podcast is saying like well is
Speaker:she kind of being an apologizer for
Speaker:Nathan Bedford for us and I learned that
Speaker:that's not the case at all really what
Speaker:you're doing what a historian should do
Speaker:is consider and learn and talk about all
Speaker:the facts and like you've said try to
Speaker:remove your own personal bias
Speaker:so that's that's kind of the historian's
Speaker:job yes is is to do that and so I
Speaker:thought that was very interesting
Speaker:because this is a an incredibly
Speaker:uncomfortable subject for a lot of
Speaker:people yes and he was a very
Speaker:controversial figure for that part of
Speaker:his life for for um and so when the
Speaker:statues started getting taken down all
Speaker:throughout the South and the in 2019
Speaker:time frame that was a big thing in the
Speaker:Memphis Area they did in the middle of
Speaker:the night which a lot of people didn't
Speaker:agree with and and this that and the
Speaker:other so
Speaker:um that's one of the things that I found
Speaker:very interesting was
Speaker:something as uncomfortable and
Speaker:controversial as
Speaker:Nathan Bedford Forrest who many the only
Speaker:thing they really know him for is that
Speaker:if they know anything at all they might
Speaker:know him for Forrest Gump or as the
Speaker:first Grand wizard of the
Speaker:KKK yes and there was a lot more there
Speaker:not apologizing or not vouching for or
Speaker:against but
Speaker:taking the whole picture into account
Speaker:absolutely like so I was a part of a
Speaker:group that actually had a marker put up
Speaker:at the location a historic Market put up
Speaker:at the location where his business was
Speaker:his human trafficking business his slave
Speaker:trade business on Adams Avenue in
Speaker:Memphis we had a marker put up to
Speaker:emphasize
Speaker:this is how Nathan Bedford Forrest made
Speaker:his money he human trafficked people and
Speaker:in that ceremony which we did on the
Speaker:anniversary of the 50th anniversary of
Speaker:the Martin Luther King assassination the
Speaker:ceremony to dedicate that marker we read
Speaker:the names I say we I was in I was
Speaker:present there I didn't read any names
Speaker:that day one of my professors did though
Speaker:and a couple of my friends did
Speaker:researchers found the names I would
Speaker:think of
Speaker:I don't want to I don't know exactly 80.
Speaker:enslaved people that were sold
Speaker:by Nathan Bedford Forrest and I mean as
Speaker:young as six months old and I I cried I
Speaker:cried so I think he's a terrible person
Speaker:in that regard I do I I'm what a
Speaker:horrible thing to do to sell people
Speaker:but as a historian
Speaker:I believe that people
Speaker:can make up their own minds and my job
Speaker:is to give you the facts my job is to
Speaker:give you the facts of those names my job
Speaker:is to give you the facts of what he did
Speaker:in the Civil War what he did after with
Speaker:the clan what what is factual about that
Speaker:and then what is factual about the
Speaker:pallbearer speech and then you have to
Speaker:decide is this man
Speaker:did he have a a a second chance that he
Speaker:to have a change of heart did he decide
Speaker:that he was wrong in the end of his life
Speaker:do people get that chance in life I mean
Speaker:I'm not this is again I'm not
Speaker:saying one way or the other how I feel
Speaker:about Nathan Bradford 4 is I'm saying
Speaker:these are the facts and that's what a
Speaker:historian is supposed to do is give them
Speaker:to you so you can decide in the end
Speaker:the statue was taken down it was taken
Speaker:down at night I believe that if a statue
Speaker:is put up by the community it has every
Speaker:right to be taken down by the community
Speaker:especially if the community doesn't feel
Speaker:that that that exemplifies how they feel
Speaker:about something
Speaker:um but I think you and I have talked
Speaker:about this before taking it down at
Speaker:night I think sends the wrong message
Speaker:I think it should be taken down in the
Speaker:middle of the day and it should be taken
Speaker:down to Fanfare they these statues
Speaker:historically go up in great Fanfare they
Speaker:go up with great crowds of people
Speaker:and a lot of excitement and they should
Speaker:be taken down I feel in the same way
Speaker:because
Speaker:that should be how the community feels
Speaker:about it yeah yeah so I think it was an
Speaker:interesting one to start it was walk
Speaker:with history the our YouTube channel
Speaker:with
Speaker:um but you did a good job in relaying
Speaker:and I think clear you know shining a
Speaker:clear spotlight
Speaker:on all of the facts yeah and I I wanted
Speaker:to emphasize too that he that statute
Speaker:didn't go up until
Speaker:I can't remember now a little after the
Speaker:1900s he had already died and he had
Speaker:already been buried at Elmwood Cemetery
Speaker:with his wife so his body was moved and
Speaker:his wife body was was moved to that Park
Speaker:and at the time that Park was the
Speaker:outskirts of Memphis
Speaker:now it's like the center of Memphis but
Speaker:at the time it's the outskirts and it
Speaker:was private property and someone had
Speaker:paid for the Statue and had it all put
Speaker:up then of course that person passed
Speaker:away gifts the park to the city and then
Speaker:the city has to now have this
Speaker:controversial they build around it yes
Speaker:yeah and so he's he was not originally
Speaker:buried there
Speaker:and he has a daughter who actually dies
Speaker:Young from um and she's buried at
Speaker:Elmwood Cemetery
Speaker:and she's she stayed there so he
Speaker:originally was buried with his wife and
Speaker:young daughter and then they just moved
Speaker:him and his wife and left the young
Speaker:daughter there so no it was again it was
Speaker:a very interesting one and I think
Speaker:hopefully for the people listening today
Speaker:they learn a little bit about who Nathan
Speaker:Bedford Forrest was and more than just
Speaker:the namesake of Forrest Gump and someone
Speaker:who did something that doesn't make much
Speaker:sense as Forrest Gump's mother says and
Speaker:also kind of why use this kind of the
Speaker:origin story of walk with history this
Speaker:is why you started it you started it
Speaker:literally just because you enjoy
Speaker:sharing your knowledge with friends and
Speaker:family on interesting pieces of history
Speaker:and you did so literally just by walking
Speaker:out to where the statue was and and
Speaker:filming
Speaker:the only two things that I really think
Speaker:about when I think of that statue is
Speaker:without that statue I would never know
Speaker:who he was
Speaker:it was because we had moved there and we
Speaker:were driving around and I saw that
Speaker:statue and I go what is that who is that
Speaker:and Nathan Bedford Forrest who who was
Speaker:he and that's when I learned about him
Speaker:now I'm not saying that you need a
Speaker:statue to learn sure absolutely not but
Speaker:I found out more about him because of
Speaker:that statue
Speaker:I
Speaker:don't think the statue is being
Speaker:destroyed I think it's going to the sons
Speaker:of the Confederacy and Spring Hill
Speaker:Tennessee they have a home or a area
Speaker:where I think the statue is going and I
Speaker:think also the bodies are going there
Speaker:they're not even going back to Elmwood
Speaker:so
Speaker:I don't know if I buy into all of that
Speaker:you're destroying history you're taking
Speaker:down I I don't not the history doesn't
Speaker:get destroyed history does not get made
Speaker:by a statue doesn't get destroyed by a
Speaker:statue I also don't believe there's
Speaker:racism in a statue I believe it's a
Speaker:statue I think all the racism and hate
Speaker:you feel is in your heart and whatever
Speaker:you have learned about a certain person
Speaker:or about a certain thing in history it's
Speaker:it's what you have learned and what you
Speaker:see because if no one even knows who
Speaker:that person is looking at a statue of
Speaker:them is not going to make them see
Speaker:racism
Speaker:so I think there has to be a part where
Speaker:you were recognizing
Speaker:our education and whereas our education
Speaker:coming from and who's teaching us and
Speaker:what are the nuances that people are
Speaker:using for wording some of the the
Speaker:collective understanding as well
Speaker:Collective understanding and like I said
Speaker:like slave trade human trafficking like
Speaker:how are things being presented to us in
Speaker:an educational level to understand
Speaker:things so I think he was a great person
Speaker:to learn from in the beginning because
Speaker:he was so
Speaker:controversial
Speaker:and remind you that people again just
Speaker:like she says in Forrest Gump
Speaker:people do things that don't make much
Speaker:sense people do terrible things
Speaker:and then people do great things
Speaker:and
Speaker:when does when does one outweigh the
Speaker:other I don't know and I don't I will
Speaker:never make that decision but I will try
Speaker:to lay all the facts out for you so you
Speaker:can make them yeah well again uh thank
Speaker:you for kind of giving us your
Speaker:perspective on on history and sharing
Speaker:that hopefully those who are listening
Speaker:who may have seen the video in the past
Speaker:on the walk with history YouTube channel
Speaker:can either go check it out if you
Speaker:haven't seen it and if you have watched
Speaker:it before hopefully this provided a
Speaker:little bit more background and insight
Speaker:into why we started why that was the
Speaker:very first video
Speaker:and thank you for listening so please
Speaker:reach out to us on Twitter we have the
Speaker:Twitter handle at talk with history so
Speaker:just what I'd encourage folks to do if
Speaker:you guys are on that Medium is uh go on
Speaker:Twitter and tweet at us and tell us
Speaker:where in the world you were listening
Speaker:from I want to hear from her listeners
Speaker:out there where you guys are listening
Speaker:from what part of the country what part
Speaker:of the world you can find more of this
Speaker:podcast at talk with history.com and
Speaker:thank you and we'll talk to you guys
Speaker:again next week I'd be interested too if
Speaker:people knew who Nathan Bedford Forest
Speaker:was yes that would be an interesting if
Speaker:you could write if you could write did
Speaker:you know who he was yeah and where when
Speaker:did you learn about him because I did
Speaker:not yeah a little little Community poll
Speaker:there so so tweeted us at talk with
Speaker:history
Speaker:um let us know if you knew who Nathan
Speaker:Bedford Forest was where you guys are
Speaker:from and we look forward to connecting
Speaker:with you and talking with you next week
Speaker:thank you so much
Speaker:[Music]
Speaker:[Applause]
Speaker:foreign
