WWII Entertainment Troops: Behind Enemy Lines with a Smile

Robert: 00:00:42

He actually, she told me, did Jeep shows with Mickey Rooney. Not only did I not know that, I did not know there were enlisted entertainers.

Jenn: 00:00:52

My grandfather was in the Battle of the Bulge. My grandfather drove a tank in the Battle of the Bulge.

Robert: 00:00:56

These jeep shows were three enlisted entertainers, MOS442s and a driver. So Sammy Davis Jr. May have been the first person to integrate the US Army.

Jenn: 00:01:08

he biggest box office draw in: 1939

When you deploy, it's like time stands still.

Scott: 00:01:29

On today's podcast we are doing an interview with author Robert O'Connor. He's the author of Jeep Show a novel, A Trooper at the Battle of the Bulge. This is a fascinating book.

Tanzer enlists in the army in: 1943

Because of his show business background, he's classified as MOS442 entertainment specialist. This is, this is a true real MOS that was used in World War II and something that I learned about during our interview.

Private Jim Tanzer is shipped to the European theater of operations and assigned to Jeep shows. Three enlisted entertainers are driven to the front lines where they put on small versions, variety shows. Private Mickey Rooney leads Jim's squad.

He's caught in the Battle of the Bulge. Jim retreats to Bastogne where he's attached to Team snafu, a hastily organized unit composed of survivors from overrun infantry companies.

This interview, you guys are really going to enjoy it because I think this is a much lesser known part of World War II history with some really famous names that we're going to talk about in people who weren't well known when they went Into World War II became world famous actors after World War II. You'd be surprised at some of the names coming out of this entertainment specialist rating after World War II.

And some of those names that you would know from our, the entertainment industry.

Jenn: 00:02:57

Yeah, this is a rarely hit on part of American history and I want people to know that these men were soldiers. They weren't USO performers, they were actual soldiers who were entertainers and went to the front line in a jeep to perform for the soldiers.

It is something that doesn't get told very often and such a important part of American morale during World War II. So welcome to our show and we're going to Have a great conversation about this book and, and we'll talk more after.

Scott: 00:03:44

Robert, thanks so much for joining us. For our listeners, before we jumped on air, Robert and I were joking that we actually live in the same area.

And Robert probably could have driven down and sat down in our studio with us, although I would have had to do some preparing, so.

Robert: 00:03:58

And I would have had to put on trousers.

Scott: 00:04:00

Exactly. We're at our pajama pants right now. Right.

The beauty of podcasting is for the most part it's audio only, but now that we've started video, it's just kind of chest up. So, so it's, it's a T shirt and, and that's, that's basically it. So. But yes, so. So Robert is the, the author of Jeep Show.

But Robert, what I wanted to start off with, aside from the just the funny fact that you live basically down the street from us, is, is, is how did you, how did this subject matter kind of first pique your interest? Like what gave you the idea like, ooh, I should write a book about this?

Robert: 00:04:38

I was, started my career in marketing at Procter and Gamble and Procter and Gamble is a written culture. And I got sent almost immediately to remedial memo writing school to learn to learn how to write the Procter Gamble way.

the Oxydol brand manager. In: 1968

And Jim Hetzer sold him on the idea of promoting this nationwide traveling circus under the Oxydol. Oxydol is a brand of detergent no longer popular. And Gibb Carey bought off on the idea. It turned out to be a disaster. Hilarious only in retrospect.

Gibb Carey survived P and G. But so the I, I thought someday I will write about the Occidental circus.

After I wrote my first book, which was nonfiction kind of self help book, I started researching the topic and I got in touch with Jim Hetzer's daughter, Jim the circus promoter's daughter. And Jim has long passed away. And she said, oh yes, I know all about that.

Did you know that my father, Jim Hetzer, was an enlisted entertainer in World War II? I said, not only did I not know that, I did not know there were enlisted entertainers.

Scott: 00:06:10

I didn't realize that either. And we were kind of, we were chit chatting before as we were kind of getting ready for the interview.

This reminded us a little bit of the movie White Christmas with Bing Crosby and Dan and so when we saw this, we're like, oh, that's probably what they were, a jeep show. They were probably some form of a jeep show. So sorry I interrupted, but please continue.

Robert: 00:06:29

So, so I said, wow, that he was an enlisted entertainer. Yeah, it was MOS442. Enlisted Entertainer.

ith Mickey Rooney, who was in: 1939

Scott: 00:06:50

Absolutely.

Robert: 00:06:51

oney joined the army in about: 1944

They would be in a jeep, they would go to just behind the front lines and they would do small three man variety shows for combat infantry who might be pulled back half a mile to get a hot meal, possibly a shower, possibly a uniform exchange. But they would do these shows and it was sort of a vaudeville type show. They, they'd sing, they dance, they tell jokes, they do impressions.

They would almost always pull a soldier out of the audience who, you know, his buddies would say, oh yeah, Joe can sing or whatever. Joe does an amazing impression of Jimmy Cagney.

And then they would, then they would hang around afterwards, you know, smoke some cigarettes, drink some coffee and just talk. And I, I became quite interested in the topic, I've always been interested in the topic of morale.

You build morale and how you keep morale and how, you know, morale is what gets you to do the tough things when you don't want to. The things you know, need to be done, but you don't want to do them. That, to me is morale. So I said, oh.

And she said, by the way, Jim Hetzer's older sister saved every letter he wrote home from the European Theater of Operations.

Scott: 00:08:24

Oh, how cool.

Robert: 00:08:25

And, and she said, and also every letter he wrote home from New York when he was trying to make it in show business in the late 30s. And so I said, oh my goodness, can I come down to Dallas and, you know, look at those letters.

I'll put on, you know, white cotton gloves and be very careful with them. And, and she said, oh, you don't need to. My sister published them in a book. So I bought this book of several hundred.

Basically it's just several hundred letters from this entertainment enlisted entertainment man writing home and read those.

And then, you know, in the endless Internet, I stumbled upon the Morale Corps Guidebook written by the army for these soldiers and their officers about a 75 page guidebook about how to put on these jeep shows, how to put on what were called soldier shows, which were done in the rear echelon using soldiers for the cast and the crew. So I had these two primary sources.

And then at some point, I decided that it was going to have to be fiction because I wanted to involve Jim in the Battle of the Bulge, and I wanted to get him caught up in that, because it is the Battle of the Bulge remains the largest battle ever fought by the U.S. army. So that was the. And I bought a book called, you know, how to Write a Novel and read it a few times.

And, you know, the main thing, the main difference for me from nonfiction is, is in nonfiction, you just tell the reader what you want to tell them. But in fiction, if you just tell the reader what you want to tell them, it gets really boring.

So you really have to show them what you want to tell them through what people do and what people say. So that was the inspiration.

Scott: 00:10:13

I absolutely love it because to your point, my brain is firing off on so many tangents that I would love to get down.

But to your point, about morale and a story like this, because a lot of times World War II stories and novels and whether they're fiction or nonfiction, can be relatively serious, but a story like this lends itself to some entertainment. And to your point about morale, right. Soldiers and sailors, for our perspective, right. We're former Navy. Current Navy, yes.

I know the soldiers that struggle together, that laugh together, that live together, are that much closer. And so I love that you interwoven the true kind of mos. Right.

This entertainment specialist that not a lot of people knew about, but there's a big name of Mickey Rooney. And then you have this character.

And I love that this is basically based off of someone that was real life with letters and everything, and then interweaving that into the Battle of the Bulge, which is a relatively well known conflict, but weaving those together to kind of give potentially what probably could have happened, you know, to someone out there. This is. It's. It's just fascinating. And I'm actually looking forward to reading it because we just got the book, you know, a day or two ago.

Jenn: 00:11:32

Well, I, you know, I love this too, for many different reasons, but I love the human story. Right. So what's going on? Men are out there fighting. Men are out there dying.

It's young men of America who are out there in, like you said, the Battle of the Bulge. My grandfather was in the Battle of the Bulge. My grandfather drove a tank in the Battle of the Bulge. And. And they're out there and What?

There's no end in sight. They don't know when they're going home. They don't know when the break is.

And so these jeep shows, which is so great because they're so mobile and so fast, a jeep show, which I learned consists of basically a jeep with a driver and three entertainers. And so they can get right to the front line.

They can get to where these men are as they're advancing, and they can give them a break, and they can give them a sense of humanity, and they can give them a sense of remembering what they're fighting for and laughter and just the good in the world.

And that's what I love about this book, because when it really comes down to warfare and fighting, like, you can't be at that level 100% without something behind it for what the motivation for what you're fighting for was.

Scott: 00:12:47

Was there anything in the letters when you were kind of going through them that that was kind of just surprising, whether it was about Mickey Rooney or about the events that that Jim kind of had had gone through. When you were going through those letters.

Robert: 00:12:59

Doing your research, I think the letters as a whole were just. As a whole, it was just surprising that this existed at all. And yet, in a way, not the jeep show. The concept was developed by a captain in the.

What I call the Morale Corps. It was actually called Special Services during the war. It had been called the morale Corps until 42, and they called it Special Services.

But the Broadway director, Captain Joshua Logan, who directed South Pacific and many other famous Broadway shows, How cool. Realized the army had moved very quickly from France, the Normandy area of France, the hedgerows, which were a bit of a problem.

But after the army broke out from there, they moved much more quickly to the German border than was expected. So you had these combat troops essentially guarding the German border. It was relatively quiet.

over in force in December of: 1944

And what they were expecting is they were going to take this show around England and then France, and, you know, it was pretty good duty. But Joshua Logan, Captain Joshua Logan, disbanded the show and organized them into jeep show units, three entertainers.

So first of all, I was surprised that they didn't know the duty that they were going to be doing when they came over. Although you both are veterans, you know what that's like, right.

Scott: 00:14:59

Oh, for sure. Yeah. You show up expecting to do one job and you end up doing something completely different.

Robert: 00:15:03

Exactly. And they never tell you why. That's right.

Scott: 00:15:06

We just need you to do it. Go and do it. Okay.

Robert: 00:15:09

Yeah. They never tell you why. So, so that was, that was the, probably the most surprising thing.

But then I think as you know, you know, soldiers and sailors and airmen and get, you know, you're given this crazy duty to do and you just do it and you get used to it. So, you know, that became, that became their routine. And they would do as many as 10 or 11 shows a day.

They would be going up and down the front lines and as you may or may not know is since your navy, since you're sailors, is on the front line. In World War II, the army would disperse company size units in various villages and hamlets and all that.

So there'd be, you know, you know, Baker Company would be in one village and then 10 miles up the road, Charlie Company would be in another. So it's that size unit. So these Morale Corps soldiers, these entertainers would just be going up and down the border in their Jeep.

Scott: 00:16:11

Gotcha.

Jenn: 00:16:11

So they'd drive to company, to company and their shows would be about an hour 45 minutes.

Robert: 00:16:16

Hour shows would be about an hour and then they try to hang out for an hour, you know, for a bit. Obviously Mickey Rooney would sign autographs. Yeah. You know, none of the other, none of the other guys were, were asked for their autograph.

By the way, Mickey Rooney was of course world famous when he was doing this. And I'm full of respect for him because he did not have to go overseas. He could have done his army service in Hollywood.

But there were many, many men who were not the least bit famous when they were 44 2s, Morale Corps soldiers, but became famous. You've heard of Mel Brooks, Young Frankenstein.

Scott: 00:16:54

Oh, wow.

Robert: 00:16:54

Sammy Davis Jr. Was a famous entertainer and friend of Frank Sinatra's back in the 60s, 50s and 60s.

You probably know there's a little trivia and you know, since I'm not a historian, Jen, I really shouldn't say this, but I will anyways. You know, the army was segregated in World War II. Well, Sammy Davis Jr.

Was a black man, of course, and he was on a jeep show squad with white, two other white soldiers. So Sammy Davis Jr. May have been the first person to integrate the U.S. army. That's my theory. I should back that up with some research. But.

And then Burt Lancaster, Dick Van Dyke, Red button. So a lot. Yeah, it became Kind of a. You know, of course, there were probably dozens and dozens and dozens of entertainers like Jim.

Jim Tanzer, the protagonist, who were not of that star caliber, but did their job.

Jenn: 00:17:57

he biggest box office draw in: 1939

Like, you know, you're with a couple hundred of your.

Robert: 00:18:19

Right, right.

Jenn: 00:18:20

Cohorts, and they come to perform and you're like, oh, my gosh, it's Tom Cruise.

Scott: 00:18:25

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:18:25

Oh, my God. You know, and that does happen today. Sometimes you will get a big name star who does stuff like that.

And, and you do want to spend that time after to talk to them and to just, you know, humanize it and be like, oh, my, this is amazing. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for getting to meet you. And they want to thank you for what you're doing.

So I just want people to realize how big of a star Mickey Rooney was doing this.

Robert: 00:18:50

Mickey Rooney was also, you know, if it was Tom Cruise today, and I think Tom Cruise has done some good service, at least for the Air Force, that would be a USO show.

Scott: 00:19:00

Yeah.

Robert: 00:19:00

And the USO shows were. They're fabulous work and they did fabulous work in World War II, but they couldn't go anywhere near the front lines because it was too dangerous.

You know, if you're going to risk somebody's life to provide entertainment to the combat soldiers who are risking their life every day, it's got to be somebody who's under orders. Yeah, it's got to be an enlisted. Enlisted. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Mickey Rooney was a. A genius.

Many of the directors that worked with him said he was the most talented actor they ever worked with. And his private life was completely out of control, off the rails. But he was a hard worker and a genius. So.

Yeah, and in these letters that I was reading, these actual letters, I got a fair amount of descriptions of what it was like to work with Mickey Rooney.

Scott: 00:19:50

I think that would have been fascinating.

And maybe after we're done, I'll shoot you an email and see if we can get the name of that book with the letters in there, because I'm sure our listeners and viewers would be interested.

Robert: 00:20:01

I'll walk out, I'll walk two blocks over and hand it to you.

Jenn: 00:20:07

Exactly.

Scott: 00:20:08

We'll have to meet up for coffee sometime.

Jenn: 00:20:10

So what did you. What you did is you took Is it Jim Hetzer became.

Robert: 00:20:15

Jim Hetzer was the real person and became Jim Tanzer. I made him into Jim Tanzer. And Tanzer is the German word for dancer, by the way, which.

Scott: 00:20:23

Oh, okay, that's cool.

Robert: 00:20:25

Which you're now the only other two people that know that.

Jenn: 00:20:33

Well, I mean, writers always have, you know, they have little.

Robert: 00:20:36

Yes.

Jenn: 00:20:36

Eggs that they're sticking.

Robert: 00:20:38

Easter eggs. Yes. One of the ones I put in there.

Several veterans of combat infantry that I've talked with about the book love a little Easter egg in there about what's called M1 thumb. The M1 Garand rifle was the standard issue rifle to infantry in World War II. And you loaded a nine round clip on the top of it.

And as soon as you put that, you know, hit that clip in its place, the bolt shot back on its own. And if your thumb was trailing a little bit in the way of that bolt, it would really hurt. So you could see guys that had black and blue thumbs.

And that was, that was called M1 thumb. And I put a little Easter egg in there.

I didn't name, I didn't name it, but I just said something like, you know, Jim, you know, the, the instructor, the drill instructor was like, you love your M1 rifle. And, and Jim looks down at his black and blue thumb and he thinks, I do not love my M1 rifle.

Jenn: 00:21:37

I love that.

Scott: 00:21:38

So when you were kind of moving on to the, like the, the piece of the Battle of the Bulge, did you.

Robert: 00:21:44

Yeah.

Scott: 00:21:44

As you were researching that, did. Had you in your research, had you seen anything where there was units like this that kind of got caught up in it or was this kind of.

You were just like, no, I'm going to. This is kind of the. More of the historical fiction piece of it to kind of interweave it with, with this large conflict there somewhere in.

Robert: 00:22:04

The middle in that. You know, I read several excellent nonfiction books about the Battle of the Bulge and the American units on the front line.

Some of them were quickly overwhelmed. Many of them held out for a long time against the overwhelming German numbers, but some of them were overwhelmed.

So you would have survivors of overwhelmed infantry companies moving back on foot or in a jeep, if they had one. And then, for example, five miles behind the front line was regimental Headquarters.

And, you know, there's going to be all sorts of personnel in regimental headquarters, telephone operators, bakers, cooks, you know, mechanics who do not, you know, are not daily, you know, are not combat soldiers. They do know how to fire a rifle.

So it's clear that many, many Hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers of all kinds were moving away from the German army and trying to kind of retreat in a disorganized fashion for some of them. And then Bastogne became kind of a collecting point. You know, the soldiers would basically try to make their way to Bastogne.

And then when they got to Bastogne, they were relatively quickly organized into what was called Team snafu. And, and most of your listeners probably know what SNAFU stands for. It's a family show, so I won't go into it in great detail. But.

So Jim's retreat, you know, half a mile ahead of the Germans at all times, traces some of the important points, geography and battles of the defense in the Battle of the Bulge, in that he retreats from the front line, from a frontline company strongpoint to Clairvaux, where the regimental headquarters was. Clairvaux is overwhelmed within a day. He retreats from there to Antonio Schaff. And that Antonio Schaff is just a crossroads.

But the army sent up mixed teams of armor and soldiers just to buy time, just to slow the Germans down long enough that Patton could. Patton and his army could get up from the, from the south.

So Jim is at the crossroads, and then he retreats to Valley, which was then overwhelmed about a day later. And then he retreats into Bastogne. And as we all know, Bastogne is. Gets under siege, but Bastogne holds out.

And interestingly, I had the famous General McAuliffe of Bastogne fame. I have him ordering Jim to put on a show for the wounded soldiers and civilians in the cellar. That part I made up completely.

I am not aware of a variety show being put on, but because of the German artillery and bombing, all the wounded had to be in the cellars. So I was basing it on the real facts that soldiers were retreating.

All kinds of soldiers, whether they were combat infantry or, or in the, in the regimental band, were turned into a fighting force in Bastogne. And so Jim kind of go his, his. His journey Back shows all those things.

Jenn: 00:25:38

That's so great. Like I said, this would make a great movie.

Scott: 00:25:40

This would make a phenomenal movie.

Jenn: 00:25:42

Great movie. So I want our listeners to know two things too as we're talking.

So first of all, yeah, a lot of these actors, Mickey Rooney included, are vaudeville actors. And you talked a little bit about vaudeville. Vaudeville is this variety show. It is this stand up variety show.

So this wasn't something kind of new to them to kind of improvise. They had done this early in Their careers.

And these vaudeville shows were these traveling shows that went around to all the towns in America, small towns, big towns. And they put on. They would sing, they would dance, they would do a little acting, they would do a little number.

And so they were very used to this variety, whatever you had available, whatever you could do to entertain people. And it also meant those actors were very well, well versed in different types of performances.

They could sing, they could dance, they could play an instrument. So they could kind of improvise wherever they were and make a show based on that. So I.

I want people to understand vaudeville is kind of a lost art today. But this is the foundation of a lot of these actors at the time. Mickey Rooney was big Bob Hope, and that's where they kind of got their start.

I also want people to know how American the jeep is. Like the jeep and the Higgins boat. Like, these are things that were just. They were developed for the war. They are very American mechanics.

And so the jeep utilized in this way is also something that is very like. It's. It's kind of like industrial meets morale and used together.

So I want people to understand that as well, because I think that is something that's very unique and cool about this book and history, that the jeep is so American and fighting this World War II a very much, you know, America has pulled into this huge conflict. So.

Robert: 00:27:35

Yeah. And for me, the jeep is incredibly symbolic of the war, but it is also symbolic of American industry.

You know, by: 1943

So we made 600,000 jeeps. And it was just.

It's a perfect emblem of how America's industrial capacity was absolutely overwhelming and absolutely emblematic of America, because we had invented the automobile industry and we had invented mass production. And what I learned is many of the German weapons, you know, very excellently designed weapons, but they were.

And the Japanese as well, but they were kind of complicated. And so if a. If a Tiger tank broke down, it couldn't get apart from a smaller Panzer.

Whereas with the American equipment, every jeep was exactly the same. And, you know, if you had to, you'd steal a distributor from somebody else's. Cheap to make years ago. But.

So the jeep was not only kind of an emblem of the war, but it was a emblem of one of the things that made America great in the 20th century, which was mass production at scale in a way that no other nation in the world did.

Jenn: 00:29:14

No.

Scott: 00:29:14

Yeah.

And it's fun that your book, right, has that in the title, Jeep show, because we've talked a couple weeks ago, we were talking to a photographer who had made this photography book about World War II bomber jacket art.

Robert: 00:29:28

I listened to it. Yeah, great show.

Scott: 00:29:31

It was so interesting hearing from him, kind of what he learned about another thing that is so classically American, this art that made it on to those bomber jackets, those flight jackets. And I love that this iconic American symbol that was the Jeep of World War II is going from unit to unit to unit, driving around.

So I think it's just kind of integrated perfectly both into the title, into the storyline.

Jenn: 00:29:58

I found a patch. I found a patch that went on your uniform that said jeep show. U.S. army jeep show. And not common, but yeah, I found that.

Robert: 00:30:09

Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to see that because I'm not sure if we found the same thing, but I would love to see. See that.

Jenn: 00:30:14

Yeah, it's kind of like a, like an arc, you know, that goes on your shoulder and.

Robert: 00:30:19

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jenn: 00:30:20

It just reminds me like this is honorable military service. Like Mickey Rooney got the Bronze Star for this. Like, this is military service.

And it's, it's something that is definitely needed and it's something that kind of sets America apart, which I always appreciate too. And I want to remind people I, I don't think they, our generation gets it as much, so I try to always compare. Right.

But Lawrence Olivia or Lawrence Olivier called Mickey Rooney the greatest actor of all time. Right. Like, this would be an A list actor out there. This would be like Tom Hanks out there performing.

Like, this is the big, the big dog is out there in a uniform.

Robert: 00:31:02

In a uniform.

Jenn: 00:31:03

With a military.

Robert: 00:31:04

With his rifle. Yeah, with his rifle somewhat nearby, just in case. Yes, absolutely.

Jenn: 00:31:10

And these men, even though they're performers, like you said, with a rifle, any time you're in the military, no matter what your job is, you are expected to be a soldier first. So if these men get caught in any conflict, they are still expected to be a soldier.

They are still expected to hold their weapon, hold their ground and do their job. And so I want. That's what sets these men apart too, from those USO performers.

Robert: 00:31:39

Right.

One of the points you made with that excellent show you did about nose art in military aviation is, you know, the, you've, you said that and your, your expert said the flight jackets were morale builders. And, you know, one of the fundamental quotes I came across is Napoleon said, you know, morale is to the material as three is to one.

And so, you know, the. The army had many, many programs to build morale in the rear echelon. It was as much as anything to keep soldiers out of trouble.

Young soldiers who were bored. But then on the front lines, they had these Jeep shows, they had Army Service edition books that were passed from foxhole to foxhole. And they had.

They would do foxhole. The frontline guys would do foxhole newsletters. So, you know, morale is a fundamentally important topic in war and in World War II.

But to me, morale is a fundamentally important topic that we all can, you know, we all can study. And that was part of the genesis of why I was so interested in this topic and these. Morale Corps soldiers.

Scott: 00:32:56

Yeah. And it's one of those things, right? You talk about morale and you talk about the, you know, the letters that they would get.

I mean, I think even Tyler Perry had made that movie about the six, triple eight, right. The first all black female, basically male unit that went and kind of got cleared up the backlog of mail throughout Europe.

I remember being on the ship, you know, both times that, you know, my couple deployments, like, one of the things you were looking forward to was when the mail would come in. This was before you could, like, FaceTime home and all the stuff that you do nowadays with all these, like, satellite links and everything.

But, you know, in the early: 2000

That's why the USO was started that, you know, the Office of Special Services wasn't just doing stuff that, like, John Ford was. Was filming stuff at the front lines, but they were also doing these. These entertainment bits. So. So I absolutely love, you know, the subject matter.

Jenn: 00:34:04

Yeah. And Robert, you also have. You have letters in your book and you have him writing his wife.

You have Mickey Rooney talking about who he's gonna marry next. Which is kind of funny, right? Like, it's Mickey Rooney, if you don't know. He's known for that as well.

So those letters are always such an important part of military history. And morale is all about bringing a piece of home to you, Right? Morale is always like.

That's why it's part of, like, the artwork is so of American, like, folk art of the jackets and these actors. Like, you're Bringing Mickey Rooney to you, you're bringing the big star to you, you're bringing a letter home from home to you.

You carry those letters with you because you're keeping a piece of home with you, and it kind of reminds you what you're fighting for, what you're putting on the line, what your motivation is. And that's. It's always like, if you can be constantly reminded of that and have that in the forefront of your mind.

And that's why these Jeep shows was so important, because they went to the guys in the front line and brought home to them right in the forefront of their mind.

So they're right before they're doing, like, the most amazing thing that they're asked for of their country, they're reminded of why they're doing it. And, yeah, that. That's the most important thing. But I love the letters. The letter part is always such a. That's a. That's a wartime staple.

That's something that really gives you insight to how a person's feeling and thinking, because usually they're not going to reveal that to their fellow soldier, but they'll reveal it in a letter. So it's a great way to get an understanding of how they're really thinking and feeling at the time.

Robert: 00:35:42

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:35:43

And I think.

Robert: 00:35:44

I think my impression was also for. For frontline combat soldiers in World War II, and I think for sailors, you know, deployed to the other side of the globe.

Jenn: 00:35:54

Yeah.

Robert: 00:35:55

As you all were. It is easy to feel isolated. Like, you know, are.

Do people even think about us here in the Gulf or, you know, here in the Ardennes forest where it's freezing cold and we're in. You know, we're. We're in. Are people thinking about us. And so, yeah. That nothing's better than Letters from Home. But.

But the physical presence of these entertainment soldiers was. Was almost as good. Yeah. You are not forgotten. We are. We are here. So. Yeah, I agree with you, Jen.

Jenn: 00:36:29

I love that. And like Scott and I, we both deployed. I tell people this all the time. When you deploy, it's like time stands still.

It's like you miss all the movies, you miss all the music. It's like it didn't happen while you're deployed. So what you come back to is what you remember the last time you left.

So it's nice to kind of have that reach back from home of what's the new song right now? What's the big movie right now? What's. And so people who are doing this are also bringing news from Home.

And they're also able to tell you, well, this is what's happening right now. This is what is going on in America right now. And that also is something that soldiers.

When you get that feeling as does anyone know I'm here, you also feel like you're not seeing what's happening back home. So you're. It's kind of stuck in a time capsule, more or less. So I like that these people are kind of like your tether to America.

Robert: 00:37:26

And, and you know, as now the service is mostly young people, you know, 18 to 18 to 24. And you've got a different, you know, a different understanding of life and family and all that. So, yeah, very, very important.

As, as Napoleon said, morale is to. The material is three is to one.

Jenn: 00:37:46

Yeah, yeah, I like that you have that in the very front of your book.

Robert: 00:37:49

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that and the, the quote, we're going to. We're going to take all the pool tables and put them in battalion headquarters.

And that was handling. Yeah, I was trying to indicate with that. I mean, the, the American production for the military was just incredible in World War II.

Now, a lot of things didn't make it to the front lines, but. But the American product. So yeah, we. We shipped 5, 000 pool tables over to the European theater of operations.

Scott: 00:38:22

That's crazy.

Jenn: 00:38:23

And those aren't light.

Robert: 00:38:24

Yeah, no, no.

Jenn: 00:38:26

So let me ask you also, how long did it take you to write this book? Like, how long were you.

Robert: 00:38:31

Too long. Way too long. And I'll tell you why. Research is fun and writing is hard. I probably started working on this.

I published the first book in: 2016

And the sequel I've started, the sequel, which may involve Jim in the Korean War in some way or other, and it certainly will involve the GI Bill. My dad was in the army in World War II and blue collar Irish Catholic kid and ended up going to Yale on the GI Bill, so.

Jenn: 00:39:13

So cool.

Robert: 00:39:14

So what a. The GI Bill.

And you know, Jen, I'm an amateur historian, not a professional like you, but the GI Bill and the Civil Rights movement were two things that absolutely change the fabric of America. And both those things I want to try to touch on in the next book or the. Or the one after that.

I'm proposing to be writing a series here that would take. Would take up to the Axadol Circus. You know, I set out to write about the Occidental Circus and now Scott, that's volume four.

Scott: 00:39:48

Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

Jenn: 00:39:50

That's what happened.

Robert: 00:39:51

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:39:51

Yeah. And as you know, I'm thankful to the GI Bill, so. 100%.

Robert: 00:39:55

Yes.

Jenn: 00:39:55

I love that.

Robert: 00:39:56

And there's a chapter in, in Jeep show about the morale Corps battalion going over to Europe on the Queen Mary.

Jenn: 00:40:04

Yes.

Robert: 00:40:05

Which was turned into a troopship. Well, my dad went to, my dad went to Europe on the Queen Mary.

e did not. My dad was born in: 1924

He did not talk about his World War II experience and unfortunately I was too young and self centered to ask him. So, you know, here I am writing this book about World War II in the European theater and I'm just saying I wish my dad were here. Yeah.

Jenn: 00:40:43

Robert, I read that part. I loved how descriptive you are of what they do to the ship to make it ready for trip, for all.

Robert: 00:40:50

The trips on board.

Jenn: 00:40:51

I, I have a friend who lives close to the Queen Mary and every time I go out there, I'm like, I need to get out there and do a video.

Robert: 00:40:57

Yes.

Jenn: 00:40:57

This motivated me to make that video because I feel like that story needs to be told. A lot of people know about the Queen Mary, but I don't think they know it was used as a troop transport during World War II.

And that is such an interesting part of its career and I would love to tell that story. So thank you. That part of your book really motivated me to want to make that video.

Robert: 00:41:17

of its time, the mid to late: 1930

They turned it into a troop ship and it carried 16,000.

Scott: 00:41:40

Oh my gosh.

Robert: 00:41:41

Soldiers and crew. So they were, they were buying a, in a guest room that, you know, that was intended for two passengers.

They were bunking, let's see, 6, 18 GIs in the same thing. So. And some of these were below the water line. So you can imagine. Well, you're Navy.

Jenn: 00:42:01

Yeah.

Robert: 00:42:01

You can, you know what it's like, what it can be like below the waterline with a lot of bodies sleeping in the same room.

Scott: 00:42:08

It's so funny when you mentioned the Queen Mary because growing up in Southern California. Right. That's where I'm Born and raised in Southern California. So I actually had my high school senior prom on the Queen Mary. That was like.

That was like a thing that we did out there. Yeah, that was just a thing. And so my high school. My senior high school prom was on the Queen Mary.

And so it's so funny how, you know, we all have different ties to it. You know, your father went over to Europe on it, and I had my high school senior prom on it. Now that's basically a museum ship slash restaurant.

Robert: 00:42:41

So what do we call that, Scott? Going from the sublime to the absurd.

Scott: 00:42:46

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Robert: 00:42:48

Exactly.

Scott: 00:42:49

Exactly.

Jenn: 00:42:49

That's so interesting. Well, we thank you today for being on the show. Tell us where we can get the book. Tell us more about.

Where we can find out more about you and your next project.

Robert: 00:42:59

Yes. Yeah.

The book, Jeep A Trooper at the Battle of the Bulge is on Amazon and also bookshop.org if you don't love Amazon, you can go directly there or my website, jeepshowbook.com gives my bio and a lot of backstory about the book. And it has an essay. I wrote an essay.

There's a war correspondent character in the book, and I had him write an essay at the end of the war, looking back on the war and how things were ending. You know, there's always a bittersweet when a war ends. You know, you don't get. Even though you're the victor, and we were.

You don't get everything you want, and compromises have to be made. But I'll just read you the last two sentences of this essay, which is on the website. That's why I. I brought it up. My editor.

My editor cut it out of the book. But the last. The last two.

America feel that millions of citizen soldiers who disliked the goddamn army were ambivalent about their officers and resisted the trappings of military hierarchy, also known as chicken shit. Yet many of them will remember their service as the ennobling experience of their lives.

If you ask them, they will tell you they fought not for their country or lofty ideals, but for each other, for their buddies to get the job done and get home. You guys, you two know about that.

Jenn: 00:44:26

That's so true.

Scott: 00:44:27

Absolutely.

Jenn: 00:44:28

You get people who complain about the military nonstop, and the minute they get out, they're so proud to talk about their service. And you know what? They should be. I give them all that should be, but that is 100% true.

Scott: 00:44:41

Yeah.

Robert: 00:44:42

Well, look, thank you so much for this letting me talk to you and your listeners. It's really been a pleasure yeah, this.

Scott: 00:44:48

Has been super fun and maybe once you, you get that next project done, we'll actually have you over to the studio. You know, maybe we can meet up for coffee in the interim or we plan a trip out to the Queen Mary. We'll, we'll, we'll definitely let you know.

Robert: 00:45:01

Yes, definitely. Let me know about that.

Scott: 00:45:03

All right. All right. So I'm gonna.

Robert: 00:45:05

Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Jen.

Scott: 00:45:07

Singing in my about pretty boys. So what'd you guys think about the interview? I loved learning about the research that he did for this book. The letters. Jen.

I thought that was fascinating. Like you cannot get more like a historian could not ask for more than primary source letters.

Jenn: 00:45:26

Well, and morale is something that's really getting hit on now about the history of World War II. The Six Triple Eight just came out about the mail and the morale of mail.

This is much more about on the front lines, the anti entertainment industry and I love that. But if you want to get a copy of Robert Oconnors book again it's available on his website.

It's on Amazon.com but he also wanted you to know that a dollar for every one of his books goes to the Stars and Stripes and that is a non profit organization that serves veterans. A dollar for every sale of this book. I really feel like this book is going to be a movie someday.

So it would be great for our list listeners to read it first before they see it on the big screen.

Scott: 00:46:06

Yeah. Again I love some of the anecdotes. If you guys got to this point of the podcast, I'm sure you guys would be interested in it.

There will be links in the show notes or the video description for where you can find this book. A Jeep Show A Trooper at the Battle of the Bulge by Robert B. O'Connor. Please let us know what you think.

Let us know if you learn anything in this podcast and we'll talk to you next time.

Jenn: 00:46:28

Thank you.

Scott: 00:46:34

This has been Walk with History production. Talk with History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny. Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.

Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk with History is supported by our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal thanks go out to those providing funding to help keep us going.

Thank you you to Doug McLiverty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny and Gail Cooper.