Episode 73

The Battle of Little Bighorn and Custer's Last Stand

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The history is palpable as you drive across wide open spaces and onto the Crow Indian Reservation to get to this historic location.

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Transcript
Jenn:

People don't know exactly how Custer was killed, but they do say

Jenn:

the Buffalo calf woman was the person who knocks Custer from his horse

Scott:

welcome to talk with history.

Scott:

I am your host Scott here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Scott:

Hello.

Scott:

On this podcast, we give you insights into our history.

Scott:

Inspired will travel's YouTube channel journey and examine history

Scott:

through deeper conversations.

Scott:

With the curious, the explorers and the history lovers out there.

Scott:

Before we talk about what I think is going to be a pretty fun topic tonight.

Scott:

Always appreciate a review on apple podcasts, some stars on

Scott:

Spotify, wherever you're listening.

Scott:

It really does help us grow.

Scott:

And I don't think the history channel has been over at Little

Scott:

Bighorn anytime recently.

Scott:

So you're welcome to anyone who's listening.

Scott:

Help us out, give us a review and let's get this podcast out to more folks.

Scott:

I want you to picture the sun.

Scott:

Hanging low on the horizon, casting, a warm summer glow over the vast expanse.

Scott:

Of the great Plains.

Scott:

Tense, stillness in the air broken only by the distant echoes of hooves and

Scott:

the soft rustling of Prairie grass.

Scott:

And the heart of this sprawling landscape, two worlds stood poised to collide

Scott:

one driven by a fierce desire to push, suppose it intruders back to lands.

Scott:

They didn't desire.

Scott:

In other bound, by a fierce determination to defend their ancestry and way of life.

Scott:

The battle of Little Bighorn loomed on the horizon and impending clash of

Scott:

warriors and cultures that would forever etch its name into the annals of history.

Scott:

So Jen.

Scott:

We got to visit Little Bighorn all the way up in Montana, where my family is from.

Scott:

Let's talk about Little Bighorn and Custer's last stand.

Scott:

.

Scott:

This area gets like three different names, so let's make

Scott:

sure we're hitting all the names.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

So it's, it's the battle of Little Bighorn.

Scott:

The the American Indians?

Scott:

No.

Scott:

As the battle of greasy grass.

Scott:

And it also has become.

Scott:

Kind of synonymous in American history as Custer's last stand.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

So it's kind of these, all three of these events is the same.

Scott:

Event.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And it's partly because Custer became relatively well-known

Scott:

during the American civil war.

Scott:

It really, I think this battle kind of brought his fame about the most, which is

Scott:

why it kind of there's those three names

Jenn:

with it.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

I mean, so.

Jenn:

Great death.

Jenn:

Lives in infamy.

Jenn:

Right.

Jenn:

And I don't think of Custer would have.

Jenn:

Died.

Jenn:

He would have been as famous today.

Jenn:

If he had lived.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So I think it's this battle.

Jenn:

It's this last great victory of the American Indians.

Jenn:

It's this basically this face-off between.

Jenn:

You can think of it as a.

Jenn:

The west meets the natives, this meeting of these two.

Jenn:

It's these clashes

Scott:

with clash of cultures, cultures.

Jenn:

That's exactly who our meeting and then.

Jenn:

The culture that you don't think will win.

Jenn:

The one that hasn't.

Jenn:

You know, it doesn't have the advanced technology is the one that is

Jenn:

victorious.

Scott:

I mean, it's kind of your classic underdog story, right?

Scott:

It's.

Scott:

It's the big kid on the block comes through, assuming they can just

Scott:

kind of do whatever they want.

Scott:

And all of a sudden they get punched right in the mouth.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

You know, and then that's what happens.

Scott:

So set the stage for where we're at.

Scott:

You know, maybe how we got out there and kind of what, what

Scott:

was going on at that time.

Jenn:

So this is M 1876.

Jenn:

So let's think about 10 years after the civil war.

Jenn:

This is where Custer has made his name.

Jenn:

He was integral during the surrender.

Jenn:

And we've talked about him before.

Jenn:

And so he's been in the army now for a while, right?

Jenn:

He's he's gone through the civil war.

Jenn:

He's seen some battle.

Jenn:

He survived.

Jenn:

He's victorious on the union side.

Jenn:

And now he's part of this Indian campaign, basically.

Jenn:

That's what they call it.

Jenn:

Moving towards The west to To basically.

Jenn:

I get the land for people who are ready to do Western expansions

Jenn:

for settlers, Oregon trail.

Jenn:

This is all this time.

Jenn:

This is the time right after the civil war, where people are

Jenn:

homesteading moving out and with the American Indians on the land.

Jenn:

And their idea of land is not so much property and ownership.

Jenn:

It's just to live off of.

Jenn:

The Western culture is looking to put them on certain areas for them to stay

Jenn:

because there's just encroachments and a lot of hostility between white

Jenn:

settlers and the American Indians.

Scott:

And if, if you watch our video, one of the things I put in the

Scott:

beginning was like a timeline, right?

Scott:

You.

Scott:

Kind of, to kind of give people a picture of what was going on.

Scott:

And, and one of the things that I tried to stress and point out was

Scott:

there was the treaty of Fort Laramie that had happened a few years prior.

Scott:

This.

Scott:

Was it, is that correct?

Scott:

Oh, yeah,

Jenn:

that's correct.

Jenn:

But it happened in 18 68, 18 68.

Jenn:

So not even 10 years.

Scott:

Not even 10 years.

Scott:

And then really what, what happened?

Scott:

And you can kind of go into more details was in the black Hills.

Scott:

And if you think black Hills think Mount Rushmore.

Scott:

In that area.

Scott:

People found gold.

Scott:

The white sellers started coming in and pushing the Indians out.

Scott:

And then you just were like, Hey, this is our land.

Scott:

You guys just gave this to us slightly.

Scott:

A little while ago, what's going on.

Jenn:

Yeah, that's a good cliff notes version.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So let's, let's just explain a little bit more.

Jenn:

So Fort Laramie is a spot on the Oregon trail.

Jenn:

It is a army base.

Jenn:

It is a location where as people are coming out and settling,

Jenn:

there's talking about we're coming across American Indians.

Jenn:

They're killing us.

Jenn:

We are having hostilities with them.

Jenn:

What can you do about this?

Jenn:

Okay, let's go out the army, the Calvary there, Fort Laramie, let's

Jenn:

go out and kind of get these people together in their tribes and put them

Jenn:

in places where they will be safe.

Jenn:

For themselves.

Jenn:

And also the Americans, the white settlers will be safe coming out.

Jenn:

So the treaty of Fort Laramie is these leaders of these tribes have come to

Jenn:

Fort Laramie in 1868 and had agreed upon certain areas that they will stay.

Jenn:

And like you mentioned, the Lakota Sioux have agreed to the black

Jenn:

Hills area as their reservation.

Jenn:

And then you get the Crow.

Jenn:

Who have agreed upon the Little Bighorn area and that's named after a

Jenn:

river there and a river for basically Westerners is a little bighorn than

Jenn:

the river for the American Indian.

Jenn:

This is greasy grass.

Jenn:

And that's why that battle's called that.

Jenn:

That that has been agreed upon as Crow reservation.

Jenn:

And so this is all decided upon and the treaty of Fort Laramie in 1868.

Jenn:

So then like you had said, 1874 gold is discovered in the black

Jenn:

Hills and the Lakota Sioux.

Jenn:

Are.

Jenn:

Living there.

Jenn:

This is their land.

Jenn:

Well, all these Westerners come in to make their fortunes.

Jenn:

And we talked about wild bill Hickok coming in to do that.

Jenn:

And Deadwood and Custer is supposed to.

Jenn:

Be enforcing this treaty and he's not, he's letting the people come in.

Jenn:

Also custom wants to make his fortune to.

Jenn:

So the Lakota Sioux are mad, because this is our land.

Jenn:

And now almost all of it has been taken.

Jenn:

No one's enforcing this treaty.

Jenn:

They, they definitely enforce the treaty to keep us on the reservation,

Jenn:

but they sure as heck aren't enforcing the treaty to keep the

Jenn:

white settlers are for our land.

Jenn:

So we're just going to move west.

Jenn:

And as they move west, they move into the Crow reservation and.

Jenn:

So I want to start like this understanding that the Lakota,

Jenn:

Sioux and Cheyenne have kind of encroached on the Crow reservation.

Jenn:

And so the crow.

Jenn:

People.

Jenn:

They kind of want to be left

Scott:

alone.

Scott:

Yeah, I mean, If you think about it nowadays, right?

Scott:

I was trying to kind of picture this.

Scott:

It'd be like, you know, Taken all of New York and the new

Scott:

Yorkers plopping them in Chicago.

Scott:

There are everybody's Americans, but all the P the Chicagoans are going to be

Scott:

like, what are you doing here, workers?

Scott:

Workers like you guys shouldn't be here.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

So

Jenn:

there's conflict.

Jenn:

It's conflict.

Jenn:

So at the beginning of 1876, America government has renegotiated

Jenn:

the reservation area because of the gold and the black Hills.

Jenn:

And they've telled sitting bull and crazy horse who are the

Jenn:

two liters of Lakota Sioux.

Jenn:

To come and let's renegotiate your reservations and we'll break up

Jenn:

this large reservation of black Hills into six smaller reservations.

Jenn:

But they don't show up.

Jenn:

They don't come.

Jenn:

They're like, no, this is wrong.

Jenn:

We've already agreed to the treaty of Fort Laramie and we're just going to move

Jenn:

with our people to where good hunting is.

Jenn:

And that was in on long, the river of greasy grass.

Jenn:

Yeah, that's right.

Scott:

Good antelope have heard, you mentioned like there is a large antelope

Jenn:

here and so then they don't show up in the beginning of 1876.

Jenn:

This is the Army's job now to go find them.

Jenn:

And bring them back now.

Jenn:

They broken this lodge reservation up into six smaller ones.

Jenn:

And we've talked about standing rock.

Jenn:

Is one of those.

Jenn:

Some we know that one today, that's one of the six that they've broken

Jenn:

up into the South Dakota area.

Jenn:

So when you think of South Dakota area, that's the Lakota Sioux area.

Jenn:

And then we got the Crow reservation over in Montana.

Scott:

And just to kind of paint the picture for those listening, right.

Scott:

We we spent, you know, a couple of weeks.

Scott:

Out kind of driving that whole area where all through Colorado and South Dakota, we.

Scott:

I mean, it's a Little Bighorn.

Scott:

So the Southern part of Montana.

Scott:

And there they are relatively different landscapes across all of them.

Scott:

Like the black Hills.

Scott:

It's it's gorgeous area.

Scott:

It's wooded.

Scott:

It's hilly it's.

Scott:

I mean, it's really, really nice mountainous.

Scott:

It's very, it's much more mountainous than, than I kind

Scott:

of initially had thought.

Scott:

I'm not having spent a ton of time out there.

Scott:

So if you're listening.

Scott:

You can think about these, these native Americans who were living in the black

Scott:

Hills and get pushed out, think dead wood and the kind of little bit of a gold rush

Scott:

before the true kind of 49 gold rush.

Scott:

And then all of a sudden they're moving out to a much more Plains,

Scott:

like great Plains type area.

Scott:

So Little Bighorn in the Southern Montana.

Scott:

It's not these massive mountains that are looming right there.

Scott:

Right.

Scott:

You're along a river, a little more like think great Plains.

Scott:

That's kind of a little bit more what it's, what it's like.

Scott:

So just to kind of paint the picture for those listening.

Scott:

There were multiple different native Americans from multiple different

Scott:

areas, just used to different things.

Scott:

And they're out there just kind of trying to find a place where, you know,

Scott:

the white sellers will let them live.

Scott:

I mean, I can imagine how incredibly frustrating and

Scott:

angry they could have been.

Jenn:

Absolutely.

Jenn:

And they've kind of joined.

Jenn:

Join with the Cheyenne.

Jenn:

And they've joined with the Arapaho.

Jenn:

So you think it's Lakota, Sioux.

Jenn:

The Dakota Sioux, this.

Jenn:

It's kind of a breakdown of the Sioux.

Jenn:

tribe broken down.

Jenn:

It was broken into three separate.

Jenn:

And then you got this Cheyenne, the Northern Cheyenne and the Arapaho.

Jenn:

And they're all kind of encroaching in the Crow territory.

Jenn:

And so the Crow.

Jenn:

Asks for the Army's help.

Jenn:

And so you get, again, these a little skirmishes it's kind of

Jenn:

start, you got the battle of Rosebud that happens in June 17th.

Jenn:

Of 1876 and then you're going to get battled.

Jenn:

Big battle of Little Bighorn and on June 25th.

Jenn:

So I'm not even about a week, 10 days later.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And so you get these army generals who are like, let's go get 'em together, but they

Jenn:

just can't seem to get on the same page.

Jenn:

So for Rosebud, you get a guy who comes out, cook, who is coming

Jenn:

from the south area and he hits a bunch of Lakota Cheyenne.

Jenn:

And they just push him back and again, that's kind of like probably

Jenn:

reinforces them for the big horn.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Right.

Scott:

It gives them the confidence

Jenn:

gives us the confidence and I talk about Buffalo calf woman.

Jenn:

Because she is integral in both battles.

Jenn:

Battle Rosebud for the Cheyenne is called battle where the girl saves her brother.

Jenn:

And we get a lot of this oral.

Jenn:

American Indian history and especially it's important in the battle of

Jenn:

little bighorn but battle Rosebud.

Jenn:

She rides out and saves her brother.

Jenn:

Her brother is called, comes in sight and comes In Sight Has his

Jenn:

horse shot from underneath him?

Jenn:

And she rides out and, and he runs and she grabs him and puts him on

Jenn:

the horse and people kind of stop and watch this happening because it's not

Jenn:

customary in the Western culture at the time for women to fight like this.

Jenn:

And here's a woman who it's just very natural for her to

Jenn:

go out and help her brother.

Scott:

And we talk about that in the video and it's, and again, I always

Scott:

encourage folks to go watch the video.

Scott:

The link will be in the show notes, but to you, you watch our video and

Scott:

we take a lot of extra B roll shots to kind of get these wide expansive

Scott:

shots of the planes and kind of what we're looking above down the river.

Scott:

So you can kind of get a feel for what some of these battles, the setting for

Jenn:

them.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

It's an, a different, it's a different type of fighting

Jenn:

to think of all these army.

Jenn:

Personnel from the civil war.

Jenn:

And they used to this very front on front fighting where the American

Jenn:

Indian is very much a warrior.

Jenn:

It's going to write circle.

Jenn:

They're going to write circles around you.

Jenn:

They're going to hold onto their horses.

Jenn:

Next.

Jenn:

They're going to be hard to aim at there.

Jenn:

There they really like to get the dust up to kind of get it kind

Jenn:

of, so you're confused and it's different type of fighting for them.

Jenn:

They fire arrows into the sky, hoping that they just hit you.

Jenn:

And so.

Jenn:

Cook just backs off.

Jenn:

So cost is kind of feeling like all these generals are coming to help me.

Jenn:

But Cooke just left and he's in

Scott:

custer is, still a Lieutenant Colonel

Jenn:

at the Villa.

Jenn:

The tenant Colonel at the time.

Jenn:

So he starts to head out and.

Jenn:

He has these Scouts, these Crow Scouts with him who are like, they're over there.

Jenn:

Well, the Crow Scouts tell him they saw you coming.

Jenn:

So they're probably going to fight you.

Jenn:

And that's one of the reasons why Custer.

Jenn:

Engage us with them.

Jenn:

So

Scott:

that's why he starts splitting his kind of battalions

Jenn:

off.

Jenn:

Or he probably would have just stayed, put and waited for more reinforcement.

Jenn:

Interesting.

Jenn:

But because the Scouts have told them that they've seen us and they're

Jenn:

going to come attack us, cussed us, like, well, I should get the,

Jenn:

a offensive I should attack first.

Jenn:

And so on the morning of June 25th 1876, he rides out with his

Jenn:

seven Calvary it's about 400 men.

Jenn:

And starts to split them up.

Jenn:

And what he doesn't realize is this encampment.

Jenn:

Of Dakota Sioux and Arapaho.

Jenn:

And Cheyenne are about 7,000 strong.

Jenn:

2000 warrior strong.

Jenn:

Wow.

Jenn:

So you've got 5,000 women.

Jenn:

Children elders chiefs, right.

Jenn:

Sitting bull as a part of them, crazy horse as a part of them.

Jenn:

They're both there.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And if any, if you.

Scott:

Well, yeah, we should.

Scott:

We try, I, I tried really, really hard to kind of really paint the picture of

Scott:

what it must have looked like back then, because that area, while it's very kind

Scott:

of looks very kind of grassy now, there was, it was actually one of the The park

Scott:

Rangers told us it was a lot more bushy.

Scott:

Back then.

Scott:

Kind of bigger bushes, so more difficult to see, but also

Scott:

they're up higher on these ridges.

Scott:

Looking kind of what further away at Little Bighorn

Scott:

river, which is kind of down.

Scott:

Almost over like a bluff.

Scott:

So it would be difficult and there's like trees that are down by the river until

Scott:

there's all these encampments down there.

Scott:

But it would still be difficult to see how and guage, how many were down there.

Jenn:

Exactly.

Jenn:

And if you see in our video, I'm pointing to where the green green trees are.

Jenn:

Cause the green green trees align the river and the encampment

Jenn:

is on the Western side of that.

Jenn:

So it's on the other side of the river.

Jenn:

So as Custer comes in and he splits his men.

Jenn:

Now I want this perfectly clear before I move any further.

Jenn:

There nobody survives with Custer.

Jenn:

So there is no primary source firsthand documentation about

Jenn:

what Custer was thinking.

Jenn:

Why he did what he did.

Jenn:

Because there's no survivors to tell you, all you we have is what

Jenn:

people heard, but Reno's group heard, which they were almost a mile away.

Jenn:

And then you have.

Jenn:

The oral history from the American

Scott:

Indian and Reno.

Scott:

So he was with the original 400 before they split off, then they

Scott:

split off into three groups.

Scott:

Reno was kind of in the front, it kind of in the front, closer to the river in.

Scott:

And Custer was higher up on the Ridge.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

So people feel because Custer was very much a student of Sherman

Jenn:

and Sherman's March to the sea.

Jenn:

That he wanted to do kind of like he was going to bombard the front and

Jenn:

have the warriors come at the front.

Jenn:

Which is what Reno was supposed to do.

Jenn:

And then all the women and children would run to the rear and Custer was

Jenn:

going to go to the rear and capture the women and children and having

Jenn:

women and children as prisoners.

Jenn:

I would cause the warriors to surrender and then they would be

Jenn:

able to get them to move back to their reservations in South Dakota.

Jenn:

That.

Jenn:

That's what people have historians and.

Jenn:

Put together.

Jenn:

It together.

Jenn:

The plan.

Scott:

Makes the most logical sense of what he was

Jenn:

thinking, but it doesn't quite work because Custer really.

Jenn:

Paul makes himself a small group.

Jenn:

It's only 40 men who were killed on her since last stand.

Jenn:

And that doesn't quite seem like you would put yourself in that

Jenn:

small deficit, but who knows?

Jenn:

So Reno takes about 200.

Jenn:

And hits the front.

Jenn:

And again, 200 against 2000 warriors is there.

Jenn:

They don't make it far at all.

Jenn:

They are pushed back and Reno.

Jenn:

I mean, they're fighting for their lives, the American Indians fight in

Jenn:

a way that they really try to get your horses to run and they really try to

Jenn:

scare you scare the horses and get the horses to stampede and get out of the

Jenn:

way, because they know if a horse runs a lot of your supplies, go with it.

Jenn:

And so you're only left with what you have.

Jenn:

And custody to not bring any gambling guns.

Jenn:

He did not bring any quick shoot shooting a revolver.

Jenn:

Rifles.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And the Americans Indians did have quick shooting rifles.

Jenn:

Oh, interesting.

Jenn:

So.

Jenn:

Reno gets pushed back right away.

Jenn:

Unbeknownst to Custer who has already split off and gone around the.

Jenn:

I would say the Eastern edge, the Northern edge.

Jenn:

And as he's coming around, he splits F another group Calhoun's group.

Jenn:

He splits them off, down a small ravine.

Jenn:

Going down towards the river, going down towards, I would say hitting

Jenn:

like the mid point of the village.

Jenn:

So if

Scott:

you're kind of thinking of this in your head and you're listening.

Scott:

You know, pick picture a TV screen in your head at the top of the TV screen,

Scott:

kind of where the Ridge would be.

Scott:

And the bottom of the TV screen is where the river would be.

Scott:

So Reno's coming down towards the river earliest.

Scott:

Right.

Scott:

And the TV screen.

Scott:

And then towards that top middle that's where Calhoun starts coming down.

Scott:

Yes.

Jenn:

Because he was trying to go around the basket.

Scott:

I was trying to go around the entire top of the

Scott:

TV screen and around the back.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And never gets there.

Scott:

He

Jenn:

never gets there.

Jenn:

He thinks he's going to get all the women and children.

Jenn:

Right.

Jenn:

Well, Reno's group is hit by these warriors so quick.

Jenn:

And the warriors, see the men going across the top.

Jenn:

And so they just go out after them.

Jenn:

They, they keep a couple of guys still fighting Reno's group.

Jenn:

But they go out after Calhoun's group and then they go right for Custer's group.

Jenn:

And I'm talking about.

Jenn:

Crazy horse.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

I'm talking about the leader of the leader going out.

Jenn:

And I talk about this in the video because crazy horse rides in between

Jenn:

Calhoun and Custer's group, and both of them are trying to fire at this.

Jenn:

American Indian leader warrior, and none of it, he's not being hit.

Jenn:

And so it's very inspirational.

Jenn:

Again, this is oral American Indian history, but it's very inspirational

Jenn:

for the warriors to see him.

Jenn:

Not only taking the lead, but not getting hit.

Jenn:

And he's, he's just in a very like Wharf war fighting.

Jenn:

You know, Yeah stage right.

Jenn:

And so they're so inspired by him.

Jenn:

So they have what they call the suicide boys, which are like

Jenn:

these young warriors who jumped from their horses and just charge

Scott:

Custer.

Scott:

Kind of follow crazy.

Scott:

Horse up there and like, we're doing this.

Jenn:

We're doing this.

Jenn:

And so it's very interesting as Custer.

Jenn:

He has really he's paralyzed himself to 40 men.

Jenn:

And he's with his brother he's with his nephew.

Jenn:

And he has really gotten to a point where they are in circled.

Scott:

They're probably at the highest kind of point of, they

Scott:

try to get the high ground.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

To get the high ground.

Scott:

And they were, but they were.

Scott:

You know, looking at, if you can, if you watch our video, I found some maps

Scott:

on online of people kind of recreating what it looks like, and you can see

Scott:

what they're trying to do with Custer's troops church kind of in circle.

Scott:

What they think is, is the.

Scott:

You know, the native Americans down at the river.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

But there's 7,000 native Americans down there, like you said to 2000 warriors.

Scott:

Th they were so far out manned and outgunned.

Scott:

They didn't have a chance.

Scott:

They didn't have a

Jenn:

chance.

Jenn:

So.

Jenn:

Reno.

Jenn:

I mean, this all happens in about two hours.

Jenn:

Think about how quick this is happening.

Jenn:

Reno says he can hear it happening.

Jenn:

And people have speculated was we know a coward.

Jenn:

Why didn't he go?

Jenn:

Why didn't he.

Jenn:

Send people out, people don't know, people think, we know might've

Jenn:

thought this was a suicide mission that Custer was doing anyway.

Jenn:

When he saw all these people, why are we attacking when we should have

Jenn:

been waiting for our reinforcements from the other Calvary's here, we're

Jenn:

doing this because Custer thought he had it in the bag or Custer just

Jenn:

who knows what Custer was thinking.

Jenn:

But.

Jenn:

He gets on Last Stand Hill which is the highest, highest.

Jenn:

Part of the land that you can get to right there.

Jenn:

And you'll see the monument is there today.

Jenn:

And he shoot, they shoot all their horses.

Jenn:

So that's one of the things we talk about too.

Jenn:

Is there going to shoot all of their horses because not only are the American

Jenn:

Indians trying to scare the horses away and they're very successful at that.

Jenn:

They, they shoot them to use them as shields and it call it

Jenn:

breasts works because basically think of protecting your breasts.

Jenn:

You're gonna, you're gonna use your horse as a.

Jenn:

As an aim as cover, you're going to lay.

Jenn:

So it's protecting your breasts basically.

Jenn:

Plus your horse has all your supplies has all your extra ammunition.

Jenn:

So they shoot all of their horses.

Jenn:

They basically build themselves like a barricade in a circle, but the

Jenn:

American Indians just overpower them.

Scott:

And you had even said to that, like in that, that era, that was

Scott:

a known kind of last ditch effort.

Scott:

You know, had defensive tactics.

Jenn:

We don't think about that today.

Jenn:

Because, you know, we, we, we don't fight like that today, but if you think

Jenn:

about it, I mean, I talk about Buffalo, bill Cody, doing things like this.

Jenn:

Custer has had 11 horses shot out from underneath him in the civil war.

Jenn:

That's why people thought that this is something with this guy.

Jenn:

He's didn't.

Jenn:

The horse has been killed 11 times and he hasn't.

Jenn:

So it's not, I'm not saying horses are expendable.

Jenn:

But it was something that was thought of as a last ditch effort.

Jenn:

Right.

Jenn:

And.

Jenn:

People don't know exactly how Custer was killed, but they do say the

Jenn:

Buffalo calf woman was the person who knocks Custer from his horse.

Jenn:

He has two bullet wounds when he has found one in the head and one in the chest.

Jenn:

And they don't know if they were before or after which one killed him.

Jenn:

They don't know if the bullet wound to the head is after

Scott:

and last 10.

Scott:

Th this, this video is actually doing quite well, even better than

Scott:

our last couple of videos, which is surprising and pleasantly surprising.

Scott:

But I think part of the reason is that we show so much of the area, right?

Scott:

So last stand hill is the high point.

Scott:

There's all sorts of grave markers around the air, including a grave

Scott:

marker for Custer, even though he's not.

Scott:

As far as we know, buried there anymore.

Jenn:

So those markers.

Jenn:

We're put there so that the there's been an evolution of the battlefield.

Jenn:

At first, they had little like obelisks and then people would just take them.

Jenn:

And then they would just replace them.

Jenn:

And then now they have the markers.

Jenn:

Now they have a gate around the markers.

Jenn:

When I was a kid, you could walk around the last downhill markers.

Jenn:

Now there's a gate around the last downhill markers.

Jenn:

Custer's marker has black.

Jenn:

On it to kind of distinguish it from the other markers.

Jenn:

There's more markers and actual men that were on last stand hill.

Jenn:

So they believe there was only 40 men on less than who I think

Jenn:

there's like 45 markers out there.

Jenn:

So again, it's, it's close enough.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

People really believe that they were killed on the top of the hill

Jenn:

where the monument stands today because they wouldn't be, they made

Jenn:

their stand at the high ground.

Jenn:

So where those markers are, could be where they buried them.

Jenn:

Now.

Jenn:

I want to just touch on it because people always want to know what

Jenn:

happened to Custer's body after.

Jenn:

Was it mutilated?

Jenn:

Yes, it was.

Jenn:

So you have to think.

Jenn:

All of a sudden Reno here is no sound, no more gunfire.

Jenn:

He knows that's it.

Jenn:

He, he stays, he stays where he's at.

Jenn:

Until he's reinforced the next day.

Jenn:

And they're able to get away him and his chips.

Jenn:

They're able to fight off and stay right where they are, the American Indians.

Jenn:

will bury their warriors and start to move because they know something's coming.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And believe me, this, this is going to be answered.

Jenn:

But.

Jenn:

The American Indians, when they encounter the dead soldiers,

Jenn:

their bodies are ransacked.

Jenn:

Of course, they take all the gear that they can find, and they are.

Jenn:

Scalped.

Jenn:

And there are some mutilations done and people believe it could be

Jenn:

because if you are bodies mutilated, your You must walk the earth.

Jenn:

For the rest of your life.

Jenn:

So, but no one knows for sure, but when the soldiers eventually do get to

Jenn:

the bodies, which is about five days later, they do wrap them up in blankets.

Jenn:

Very shallowly, bury them and cover them with rocks.

Jenn:

And they believe that is where those markers are.

Jenn:

Okay.

Jenn:

And then about.

Jenn:

Five years after that is when someone's like, oh, Custer should be at west point.

Jenn:

Yeah, cause he graduated there.

Jenn:

He graduated there.

Jenn:

And other people want their family's bodies too.

Jenn:

So some other army officers come out there to retrieve those bodies.

Jenn:

And as you can think, five years animals, shallow grave, shallow graves,

Jenn:

nothing much is things are scattered.

Jenn:

They find.

Jenn:

What they believe as a officer Lieutenant Colonel jacket with the bones, but they're

Jenn:

not sure because again, things have been, who knows what the American Indians kept

Jenn:

or didn't keep her through or, and so.

Jenn:

And the officer just gets to the point, grabbed those ones.

Jenn:

That's Custer.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Grab these ones.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

And so then they take all the bones.

Jenn:

And bury them at the very top and put the monument above it.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So there's no bones where those markers are today.

Jenn:

They're buried at the monument and in all likelihood, summer

Jenn:

customers' bones are still there.

Jenn:

And who knows.

Jenn:

It might be a little Custer and a little of some other peeps.

Jenn:

With it in the grave at west point, but.

Jenn:

What is interesting too, is I'd say in the last 20 years, They have put red markers

Jenn:

for the American Indians that fell.

Scott:

That was cool to see.

Scott:

And I, and I, again, as, as the, the non history nerd here,

Scott:

I appreciated them kind of.

Scott:

It evolving.

Scott:

You know, through that because you know, they didn't do that when they first kind

Scott:

of created now under the national park.

Scott:

That was that that's there.

Scott:

But now they have like an Indian in a native American Memorial.

Scott:

Yes.

Scott:

With all sorts of really, really well done.

Scott:

And I did my best to kind of show it.

Scott:

We had like high noon is sunlight.

Scott:

You know, so it was difficult with glares and cameras and stuff, but it was

Scott:

really neat to see how they did that.

Scott:

The Indian Memorial.

Scott:

And it, you could see, you know, just up the hill was the

Scott:

monument was the last stand hill.

Scott:

It was, it was pretty, it was

Jenn:

very well done.

Jenn:

There's a lot of symbolism there it's you can see it has a little crack, so you

Jenn:

can see the monument of last downhill.

Jenn:

It is a circle.

Jenn:

So it's very much how the American Indian fought.

Jenn:

In a circle.

Jenn:

It has a silhouette of the American Indians and their horses.

Jenn:

And the way, like I said, how they kind of hang around the necks

Jenn:

of their horses, which makes it hard for people to aim at them.

Jenn:

And it is a very beautiful, and it talks about Custer smoking, a peace pipe

Jenn:

promising, never to kill a Cheyenne.

Jenn:

And then let, what is it?

Jenn:

Less than seven years later?

Jenn:

And it says, if you do, your body will turn to dust and he does.

Jenn:

So it's just very like, for, for boating.

Jenn:

It has some great etchings of the chiefs.

Jenn:

And like I said, I sitting bull, is there crazy horses there?

Jenn:

Crazy horse will eventually surrender himself in Nebraska

Jenn:

where he will eventually be killed.

Jenn:

He would be bayoneted by an army officer and sitting bull will He'll run away

Jenn:

to Canada, but he will also eventually surrender himself and then he will

Jenn:

eventually be killed by the army.

Jenn:

So this is.

Jenn:

The last great triumph of the American Indian.

Jenn:

And like I said, although they will win this battle, they will

Jenn:

ultimately lose the war and they are still on their reservations today.

Jenn:

And I think what happens, you know, the Custer.

Jenn:

This is a rallying point for America.

Jenn:

This is a great.

Jenn:

Way for people in media and newspaper to really paint the American Indian

Jenn:

as a Savage again, and for them to, again, for the army to go

Jenn:

out there and to really regulate.

Jenn:

Where the American Indian can live.

Jenn:

And again, start to break down their culture and send their children.

Jenn:

To westernized schools.

Jenn:

And try to erase a lot of their heritage and traditions.

Jenn:

And they're not.

Jenn:

That is unsuccessful.

Jenn:

Thank goodness.

Jenn:

But what I do try to stress at the end of this video.

Jenn:

And I think it's important is.

Jenn:

There's no sides here, both.

Jenn:

Both sides, fight balantly to their deaths.

Jenn:

And a lot of ways both are fighting for something they ultimately believe in.

Jenn:

And when you think Custer's fighting, because it's his job to keep the

Jenn:

American Indians on these reservations is part is part of the treaty.

Jenn:

He's also helping the Crow.

Jenn:

And he feels like this is his duty to do the job, to, to protect the,

Jenn:

the, the Westerners, the people who are homesteading and the

Jenn:

crazy horse and sitting bull war fighting for their way of life.

Jenn:

And so I look at it as there's no win.

Jenn:

There's no winner here.

Jenn:

This is a very much a culture clash.

Jenn:

Of American history.

Jenn:

And I look at both sides fighting violently to the end.

Jenn:

Custer.

Jenn:

This will go on to be kind of romanticized because Custer's wife,

Jenn:

Elizabeth goes on this kind of campaign.

Jenn:

That's right to protect his image.

Scott:

I remember you mentioning that, which was very interesting.

Scott:

And.

Scott:

I can understand in that era, why a wife might, might do that.

Scott:

Right.

Scott:

It's kind of tied to the livelihood and.

Scott:

Be your place in society and.

Scott:

And all this stuff.

Scott:

So.

Scott:

It was very interesting learning about this and actually being there.

Scott:

Just kind of had that feel right.

Scott:

It was some national parks you can kind of.

Scott:

Get the feel for what happened back then.

Scott:

And this absolutely was one of them.

Scott:

And actually, I think we, we had learned that like, A week after we left.

Scott:

They were doing, they were getting ready to shut down.

Scott:

Yeah, the visitor center visitors.

Scott:

Visitor center.

Scott:

Because they're getting ready to overhaul it for you and do it like a large,

Jenn:

large overhaul.

Jenn:

Yes.

Jenn:

And if you go visit, there is a national cemetery there that has nothing to

Jenn:

do with the battle of Little Bighorn.

Jenn:

So when you see the national cemetery, it's just people who have fought in.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Jenn:

You know, Veterans it's veterans who are buried there on the reservation, but

Jenn:

when you drive up, you might be like, oh, are these the people from Bella?

Jenn:

No, that has nothing to do with the Bella.

Jenn:

Big horn, but I just want to stress that.

Jenn:

I feel very proud of the American Indian in this regard because they did, they

Jenn:

beat the bully, they beat the Goliath, but I also feel bad for Goliath because

Jenn:

they are fighting for something that they.

Jenn:

They don't know any better either.

Jenn:

And so for me, it was just.

Jenn:

As an, as an American and as a historian it's someplace that I really think is

Jenn:

such an important part of our history.

Jenn:

It can't go away.

Jenn:

We have to learn it and we have to learn all of it.

Jenn:

I really appreciated the spirit tree that was there that had

Jenn:

all the cloth tied on it.

Jenn:

I know that the American Indians.

Jenn:

Celebrate every year they do ghost dances and they're out

Jenn:

there, you know, still celebrating their ancestors and that moment.

Jenn:

And I just think it's a very important to not forget it.

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

And in and largely too, because the national park is

Scott:

located on, a native American reservation, so it was, it was neat.

Scott:

It was so neat for me because I have family ties.

Scott:

History ties to Montana.

Scott:

We actually had a friend that lived didn't didn't live too far away and we felt bad.

Scott:

Not.

Scott:

Sorry, Courtney.

Scott:

For not reaching out.

Scott:

We're, we're very limited on time and cause we drove, 6,000 miles

Scott:

over the course of two weeks.

Scott:

But it was an absolute blast and that is absolutely one of those places.

Scott:

Like you just have to make the effort to get out there and

Scott:

go, it's not close to anything.

Scott:

You have to make the effort, but it's a hundred percent worth it because you

Scott:

just see these vast kind of rolling Plains Hills and way off in the distance.

Scott:

You can start seeing, some bigger stuff, some of the

Scott:

bigger mountains in Montana and.

Scott:

Just driving through there is.

Scott:

It's a, it's a different part of the country.

Scott:

It's bigger and it feels bigger out there.

Jenn:

It's powerful.

Scott:

It's very powerful.

Scott:

So I hope that you've gained a deeper understanding of the pivotal moment that

Scott:

forever altered the course of history.

Scott:

The battle of Little Bighorn stands as a poignant reminder of the clash between

Scott:

cultures, the complexities of human conflict and the resilience of those

Scott:

who fought to protect their way of life.

Scott:

So join us in the next episode, we'll continue to delve into the tapestry

Scott:

of the past, uncovered the threads that connect us to these remarkable

Scott:

events and that have shaped our world that Jen and I love going out.

Scott:

Walking in the footsteps and sharing that with you.

Scott:

If you enjoy this podcast, we have a bunch of other episodes that

Scott:

cover Western history, and we encourage you to check those out.

Scott:

Follow us.

Scott:

so you don't miss more episodes just like this and as always thank you

Scott:

for joining us and sharing the talk with history podcast because we rely

Scott:

on you our community to grow and we appreciate you all every day We'll

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About the Podcast

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Talk With History
A Historian and Navy Veteran talk about traveling to historic locations

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About your hosts

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Scott B

Host of the Talk With History podcast, Producer over at Walk with History on YouTube, Editor of HistoryNewsletter.com
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Jennifer B

Former Naval Aviator turned Historian and a loyal Penn Stater. (WE ARE!) I earned my Masters in American History and graduate certificate in Museum Studies, from the University of Memphis.

The Talk with History podcast gives Scott and me a chance to go deeper into the details of our Walk with History YouTube videos and gives you a behind-the-scenes look at our history-inspired adventures.

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