Swayze, Slaps, and Southern Shenanigans: Part 3 of Reviewing 1985's North and South with Addressing Gettysburg
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Join us as we delve into the intricate tapestry of love and war in episodes 3 and 4 of the classic 1985 mini-series, North and South. Hosted by Matt Callery and featuring history enthusiasts, Scott and Jen, this episode explores the growing tensions and relationships within the series. We discuss the evolving bromance between George Hazard and Orry Main, deeper insights into antebellum Southern life, and the complications arising from conflicting loyalties and societal norms. Buckle up for a mix of historical nuggets and dramatic twists that set the stage for the impending Civil War.
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Transcript
And he's so into this that.
Speaker A:What is it I said here?
Speaker A:Orey slaps Brett and immediately regrets it and apologizes, then cries with snot and drool.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, that's some acting.
Speaker B:We're here with Matt Callery from addressing Gettysburg.
Speaker B:This is actually episode three in our little mini series here of Watch With History that we've been doing with Matt talking about north and south in miniseries with Patrick Swayze and all these amazing actors.
Speaker B:I'll link the other two episodes that we have done before this because this is going to be kind of the last part of what they call book one.
Speaker B:Matt, I was excited to talk about this one because these episodes five and six, I was commenting to Jen just before we jumped on.
Speaker B:They didn't cover a huge time span, but a lot happened with the characters.
Speaker A:Everything's compressing.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:All impressing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's almost like it's escalating and accelerating, probably maybe how it felt.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Before we get into it, though, I have to say I started watching episode one because it just came out as I was doing, driving home to get my stuff that I forgot for this.
Speaker A:And I have to really tell you, Scott, I love the way you edit.
Speaker B:Oh, thank you.
Speaker A:And I, I.
Speaker A:It's the way I would edit my shows if I had the time.
Speaker A:Yeah, totally do it that way.
Speaker A:That's the way it should be done.
Speaker A:And I just really like.
Speaker A:Because in the beginning of it, I mentioned the first chords of the theme, the opening song, and you play those first chords there, so the audience knows that's the way it's done.
Speaker A:That's very good.
Speaker B:No, no, I. I appreciate that.
Speaker B: d six of north and South, the: Speaker B:What'd we say in.
Speaker B:In our.
Speaker B:In our first chat about this, the seventh highest rated miniseries of all time.
Speaker C:Of all time.
Speaker B:Of all time.
Speaker B:So not long after Roots.
Speaker B:If you've never seen it, I will absolutely link to the YouTube video.
Speaker B:Like, you can watch this on YouTube after you're done watching this.
Speaker B:This show.
Speaker B: , we're starting off in about: Speaker B:Cause it's just before Harpers Ferry.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:And it starts off with Madeline.
Speaker C:We had talked about this a little bit.
Speaker C:The celery tonic in the end of the last episode.
Speaker C:And she's gonna get high as a kite, which I feel I had looked it up.
Speaker C:Would.
Speaker C:Would Taking.
Speaker C:I keep mispronouncing it.
Speaker C:Laudim.
Speaker C:Laudim.
Speaker A:Laudanum.
Speaker C:Laudanum.
Speaker B:Laudanum.
Speaker C:Would it make you have amnesia because she forgets everything?
Speaker C:What it says is it makes you, makes you forget your short term memory and any new memories.
Speaker B:Oh really?
Speaker C:It doesn't make you forget your long term past memories, but because you're in, you're the state, you're in your, you know, the, the high state at presently.
Speaker C:You don't really act on your past memories, but you don't actually forget them.
Speaker C:Like she wouldn't have.
Speaker A:She would know who Lori is.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's been a while since I did some laudanum and I don't remember.
Speaker A:I don't remember what it does do.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, actually like her husband got her to a increased weak state, right?
Speaker C:He doesn't feed her, he tells the doctor she's refusing food.
Speaker C:We know that's not true.
Speaker C:We know he's keeping the food from her.
Speaker C:So she's in such a weakened state, she doesn't have her.
Speaker C:Her basically her companion anymore.
Speaker C:She's died and so she's on her own.
Speaker C:And they bring the doctor in and she does try to tell the doctor at one point her husband goes to open the window and she has like a moment and she just.
Speaker C:She's so weak.
Speaker C:She can't even like touch the dog.
Speaker B:He's been starving her.
Speaker C:Yeah, can't even touch him.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:So the celery tonic he gives her.
Speaker C:And so then when we see Madeline, she goes to Ashton's wedding.
Speaker C:Ashton who opens up horrible.
Speaker C:And she's going to get more horrible, which is going to be almost like Ashton.
Speaker C:Ununderstood.
Speaker C:She's so bad.
Speaker C:But I, you know what I like about her?
Speaker B:So, Matt, that's my first note for episode five.
Speaker B:It says Ashton, that bitch.
Speaker B:That's my first note.
Speaker B:I was like, go is the worst.
Speaker C:She's the worst.
Speaker C:But she makes you really hate her.
Speaker C:Which I, I think she does a good job of that.
Speaker A:I think, you know, she's supposed to be contemptible.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, you're supposed to hate Ashton.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you're supposed to hate Virgilia too.
Speaker A:They're both, they're both two sides of the same coin.
Speaker A:And, and, and you look at like how they both drive their families nuts.
Speaker A:Well, that's down the road.
Speaker A:So what happens to them?
Speaker A:But yeah, no, Ashton is a.
Speaker A:What does she do in here that makes you say that?
Speaker A:I, I can't.
Speaker B:I think it's just, I think it's basically just what she's doing to her sister.
Speaker B:She's talking to Brad.
Speaker B:I couldn't remember.
Speaker A:Yeah, here, I have it here.
Speaker A:So Ashton's all with Huntoon and everything, but for Forbes Lamont, who's David Carradine's nephew or brother or whatever, he's trying to bang Ashton.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And he is French and he is banging.
Speaker A:And she likes it.
Speaker A:And, well, she's using him.
Speaker A:She's using him because she plots with him to do something to Billy Hazard, which later we'll find out is he's supposed to hire a street gang to mug and kill him.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:It's crazy.
Speaker B:She's crazy.
Speaker A:And her little baby sister, who's the biggest dope on the show because she keeps falling for Ashton's shit, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:I wrote that in my notes too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Just such an idiot.
Speaker A:And she's like, you know, she falls for every little lie that Ashton tells.
Speaker A:And then Ashton pulls this stuff and, you know, she loves Billy Hazard.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's her sister.
Speaker A:I mean, come on, Ashton.
Speaker A:But Ashton is becoming increasingly a pro secessionist, pro south lunatic.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And as we know, when you.
Speaker A:When your ideology becomes your identity, you do horrible, horrible things and you think that you are righteous in doing so.
Speaker A:And so this is where she's coming from.
Speaker A:And of course, Forbes, he's just as much a pro south secessionist type as she is.
Speaker A:And so, you know, they're.
Speaker A:They're of the same elk.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they don't like Little Bill because he's a Yankee.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was.
Speaker B:And this was kind of where they lead into Ashton's wedding to the.
Speaker B:I forget, what's the guy's name?
Speaker B:James.
Speaker B:Is that what.
Speaker B:His name.
Speaker A:James Huntoon.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he's kind of leading the whole secession effort.
Speaker B:He's one of the big kind of, you know, political kind of drivers down there in South Carolina.
Speaker B:And so some of the notes I actually took that I thought was interesting of the wedding, obviously Ashton's kind of plotting with her lover, like, the day of her wedding, which is insane.
Speaker B:But I thought the.
Speaker B:The photo was interesting.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They showed the photo, and so I kind of looked up.
Speaker B:I was like, what kind of photos would they be taken back then?
Speaker B:I think it was like a Darrow type, or however you say that.
Speaker B:Dagger.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Typically for.
Speaker B:For weddings like that.
Speaker B:And so I just thought that was interesting.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:He said.
Speaker B:He kind of.
Speaker B:They set up and he said, hold, hold, hold, hold.
Speaker B:He counted to like, five or six.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:They had to stand perfectly still.
Speaker C:Top blur, blurry.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker C:And I had spoke too soon.
Speaker C:I had said how great this looked.
Speaker C:Hair wise, not 80s.
Speaker C:I say, we'll say those hairstyles for the wedding were totally 80s.
Speaker C: hat was not hairstyles of the: Speaker C:They looked very 80s in that.
Speaker C:And I was like, that was not great.
Speaker C:What they did do, though, was they played Dixie.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:A lot.
Speaker C:Yeah, they did, a lot.
Speaker C:And the person who wrote Dixie is actually buried here in Memphis at Elmwood Cemetery.
Speaker C:And they have that.
Speaker C:The tune across his.
Speaker C:The like the music notes across his tomb.
Speaker A:That's cool.
Speaker C:That's kind of neat.
Speaker C:Y.
Speaker B:Was he really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He wasn't a Southerner.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:It was written before the war.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:I guess he just liked the south or.
Speaker A:So I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know what's behind the writing of it, but it's.
Speaker A:It's not a, you know, it's not a song written for the war.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well.
Speaker B:And obviously then they'll bring back in another hated character.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So James, the husband, you know, Ashton's new husband, is down in New Orleans advocating for the secession.
Speaker B:He like, gives his rousing speech, right.
Speaker B:He's standing there on the thing and he's kind of saying all these things and everybody's applauding and then he kind of nods and they start playing Dixie.
Speaker B:And then it pans and we see bent.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:We see the arch nemesis and we're like, oh, no.
Speaker B:And so that I thought was my notes.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, no, it's bent again.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:And then I guess he knew James.
Speaker B:And then they're.
Speaker B:They're kind of off, off to the next part of the.
Speaker B:Of the story.
Speaker B:So they go off to the.
Speaker B:The kind of hotel of ill repute.
Speaker C:The house of ill repute.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Is there anything that you wanted to say, Matt, about any of that?
Speaker A:I wrote bent his back and Ori's got some trouble.
Speaker A:That's what I wrote.
Speaker B:That's a good one.
Speaker C:Because he realizes the family.
Speaker C:He's like, oh, I hate this family.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:Well, wait.
Speaker A:So he goes.
Speaker A:He goes whoring with Huntoon and meets Elizabeth Taylor, who happens to be Elizabeth Taylor.
Speaker C:She looks great.
Speaker C:She's a madam.
Speaker A:She's a madam.
Speaker A:And he learns that Madeline's great grandmother.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was a slight.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:That was like the big thing.
Speaker A:He's like, right.
Speaker A:And well, wait, does he learn at that point that it's Madeline who is related?
Speaker A:Because he sees that painting on the wall, and he asked about it.
Speaker B:He figures it out because she looks so much like Madeline.
Speaker C:It looked.
Speaker C:It's a painting of Madeline.
Speaker B:And he kind of kept asking.
Speaker B:Yeah, he.
Speaker B:He kept asking all the questions, like, what happened to the daughter?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then I think she drops Madeline's father's name.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker B:So I think that's how he made the connection.
Speaker B:He was talking about this girl that used to work there, and then she left with this rich man.
Speaker B:And I think she dropped the husband's name.
Speaker B:Although she.
Speaker B:I don't think she ever knew Madeline's name or anything like that.
Speaker B:But I think that's how he connects the dots.
Speaker A:You know, as I was watching, I was rewatching it this afternoon to prepare for this, to refresh my memory.
Speaker A:And I started with episode six, not episode five, because I want to get to the tension, you know, let's get to the goddamn war already.
Speaker A:And the one thought I had was poor Madeline.
Speaker A:Like, Madeline gets the shit end of the stick on just about everything.
Speaker A:Her dad drags her up to South Carolina, marries her off to Justin.
Speaker A:Justin abuses her, kills her best friend.
Speaker A:Mom Sally drugs her.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then more shit happens later on.
Speaker A:I don't want to.
Speaker A:I want to get there, you know, and even later than that, you know, things.
Speaker A:Things just.
Speaker A:Poor Madeline.
Speaker A:That's all I keep saying.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:She gets the.
Speaker B:She gets the brunt end of.
Speaker B:Of this.
Speaker B:This storyline.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:You talked about it last time, Matt.
Speaker C:This one drop rule.
Speaker C:I think they do a very good job of kind of explaining this.
Speaker B:You talk about, like, the bloodline.
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker C:They believe, like, if you had one drop of Africa black blood in you, you were black.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so.
Speaker C:And it depended on how much.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:They use different terms, like different herbs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So she would be.
Speaker A:If it was her.
Speaker A:Her great grandmother.
Speaker A:That means that she was 1 8.
Speaker C:So she was the octoroon.
Speaker A:Octoroon was the term that they used.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And they have a quadroon if you're fourth.
Speaker A:Fourth.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Mulatto.
Speaker C:Of half.
Speaker A:Yeah, half.
Speaker A:And I think those terms were used into the 20th century and government documents.
Speaker C:Isn't it crazy?
Speaker A:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's crazy today.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, I believe that that's what it was back then.
Speaker A:You know, but to.
Speaker A:To think of.
Speaker A:Of that type of.
Speaker A:But, you know, then also, you look at, like, the Nuremberg Laws, and they're very similar.
Speaker C:They are.
Speaker A:And, and.
Speaker A:And the way they determined who.
Speaker A:It's just people are awful you know, I think, was it Bill Maher said that human beings are.
Speaker A:Or people are the worst human beings or something like that.
Speaker A:Terrible.
Speaker A:Like people are really bad to each other and I don't like it.
Speaker A:But yeah.
Speaker A:So she finds out or no, sorry, Bent finds this out and you can see the wheels turning in old Benti's hat.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We're just left wondering how he's going to use that information.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, wait until you find out.
Speaker C:I know, and I.
Speaker C:You know, the thing about like, so I think here we have some big names.
Speaker C:Here's Elizabeth Taylor.
Speaker C:Oscar winner Elizabeth Taylor.
Speaker C:She's the madam.
Speaker C:What a perfect role for her, really.
Speaker C:She looked great, right?
Speaker C:But I always tell Scott, like in a past life, I was a madam because those women are not dumb.
Speaker C:Madams are smart ladies, right?
Speaker C:Like, they're, they are, they're.
Speaker C:They have non, Non formal power, but they wield so much power even politically, like they really do.
Speaker C:And for her to kind of sit there and be manipulated by Ben asking the questions, and she was like, oh, oh, I'd be like.
Speaker C:She'd be like onto him in two seconds.
Speaker C:Why do you want to know?
Speaker C:What, what do you.
Speaker C:Why do you care who this is?
Speaker A:What are you, what are you.
Speaker A:What are you looking for?
Speaker A:Bent?
Speaker A:Yeah, no, they were the, they were the.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, they were the Jeffrey Epstein of their day.
Speaker A:At least locally.
Speaker A:They knew all the dirty secrets about politicians.
Speaker A:They could.
Speaker A:They could make or break you, probably.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So there's.
Speaker A:Okay, so Ben Bent, by the way, is a major now in the United States Army.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because there is no Confederate army yet.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker A:Okay, now we go.
Speaker A:George and Ori are talking.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Why are they talking?
Speaker A:Where are they now?
Speaker B:Are they.
Speaker B:So Ori takes the train up, back up north to Philly because he wants to kind of give him his initial profits of the.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, the business.
Speaker B:Joint venture, the joint mill or whatever like that.
Speaker B:So he takes 80 grand up there.
Speaker A:And he takes Brett.
Speaker B:Yes, and he takes Brett.
Speaker B:And that's kind of the key point.
Speaker B: grand in: Speaker C:Today he's traveling with it.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So he brings it up in his little case.
Speaker B:He's like, here you go.
Speaker A:Yeah, plunk, you know, but, but like what?
Speaker A:I, I get like.
Speaker A:I was thinking that.
Speaker A:Because he does it again later.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and I'm thinking, what else would he have done?
Speaker A:Like, I mean, I guess you have to hire like a armored, like Wells Fargo.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:If Wells Fargo was around yet, but you know, something like that, or.
Speaker A:But then, you know, there's God knows what guy.
Speaker A:So he wants to.
Speaker A:Obviously he wants to see his bro.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:As this bro man.
Speaker A:He wants to see his buddy.
Speaker A:This is an excuse to go up there, but also, who better to protect it than you?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he's traveling up, but I also kind of noted that on the train riding north, he starts getting pushback for just being a Southerner.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Just for being on the train up north, he kind of starts getting a little bit more of that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And he keeps his cool.
Speaker B:He keeps his cool.
Speaker B:But, you know, then once he gets up there and they're talking to George, he's talking about Charles.
Speaker B:He mentions how Charles is chasing bandits in Texas and I guess Cortina.
Speaker B:So they mentioned him, and he was actually a real person.
Speaker B:I just, I looked it up real quick and then I.
Speaker B:My next note was Fregilia is a zealot.
Speaker B:So I think she.
Speaker A:She re.
Speaker B:Enters the picture.
Speaker A:This is where Jelia.
Speaker A:Art's really, really getting on my nerves.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, and I. I was thinking about this today when I was watching it.
Speaker A:Cause she also has a moment later on in episode six.
Speaker A:Well, first of all, Kjersti Alley has crazy eyes.
Speaker A:She has beautiful eyes, but they can look crazy.
Speaker A:And she's really good at crazy.
Speaker A:And people like that unnerve me to begin with.
Speaker A:So I don't like her because of her.
Speaker A:I hate to say it.
Speaker A:Because of her mental illness.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Like she's.
Speaker A:She's mentally ill. Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Most are.
Speaker A:So she.
Speaker A:She bugs me there.
Speaker A:She just unnerves me.
Speaker A:When she walks into a scene, I get uncomfortable.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But my.
Speaker A:My dilemma is I completely agree with her.
Speaker A:Cause.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:To me, there's a right way and a wrong way to get your cause to be embraced by everybody else and become the law of the land.
Speaker A:And she's heading towards the wrong way in my book.
Speaker A:And whereas I think the rest of the Hazard family, they were moderate all along, but they're starting to move towards her causes, towards.
Speaker A:Towards taking up her cause, just not in the way.
Speaker A:In fact, George says this.
Speaker A:He goes, you know, I. I agree with her.
Speaker A:Cause I don't agree with her ways or something to that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's where I am.
Speaker A:I'm with George.
Speaker A:I agree with the cause.
Speaker A:I don't agree with the ways.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But she's.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So now I'm remembering because Ori's up there with, with Brett giving the money and who pops in but crazy Virgil, I say crazy Virgilia comes in and starts fucking with the mains.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And she's leaving for Chambersburg right out here by me.
Speaker A:And she's going to join John Brown, the new messiah.
Speaker A:See, when you start talking of a human being as a messiah.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, I think you're crazy.
Speaker A:And Orey thinks he's a murderer.
Speaker A:So this is like the John Brown we.
Speaker A:Like I said, we did an episode about Brown and we had people in a tavern, they were talking about him.
Speaker A:And to this day, this is the argument with John Brown is people who think he's a murderer or a terrorist, other people think he's Jesus.
Speaker A:And there doesn't seem to be an in between, at least among the people that I've talked to about this.
Speaker A:You think he's one or the other, whereas I think I'm in between.
Speaker A:I agree with his cause, I don't agree with his methods.
Speaker A:And, and so I'm on that, on that fence there.
Speaker A:But yeah, so anyway, so she's going there to, to be with him.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously there wasn't a woman with John Brown's army.
Speaker C:Yeah, I looked it up.
Speaker A:So this is all fiction here and I. Yeah, so, but.
Speaker A:But still we have to put her, one of the main characters with John Brown.
Speaker A:But they actually put three of the main characters with John Brown.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was surprised.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's where Mr. Johnny Cash, that's where he makes his, his cameo.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And he's.
Speaker B:He's playing the infamous.
Speaker B:What is it, Captain Smith is what he calls himself or something like that.
Speaker C:Oh, I don't know.
Speaker C:He's John Brown.
Speaker B:Yeah, he's John.
Speaker B:But he.
Speaker B:I think he called or they address him or they call him, you know, he calls himself Captain Smith.
Speaker B: And so now we're in: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So we're creeping ahead slowly but surely.
Speaker B:This is Harper's Ferry.
Speaker B:So Ori, I think Ori and Brett are heading back down south.
Speaker C:So there was a thing that happened.
Speaker C:So Virgilia comes to the house, raises some.
Speaker C:She, you know, like she does.
Speaker C:And like you say, we agree with her.
Speaker C:We agree that.
Speaker A:Can I stop you there?
Speaker A:I'm sorry, I.
Speaker A:But on the next page I actually wrote quotes.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:George says his quote is, I take issue with her words and her ways, but my sister is on the right side.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And that is way more potent than what I said.
Speaker A:And she says Because Ori, he's had it with her.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He finally cuts loose, he unloads on her.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think he calls her evil.
Speaker A:It probably threw a couple of other horrible things in there.
Speaker C:He said some pretty bad things.
Speaker B:Go back to her husband.
Speaker A:Oh, about her husband.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Oh, I think that's the N word.
Speaker A:Yeah, he does.
Speaker A:And, and he, so I wrote Ori goes too far and then her answer, because he says he calls her evil something or other.
Speaker A:And her answer was evil.
Speaker A:Sees evil in everything, which is interesting because she kind of does evil in everything.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:Like she sees everything.
Speaker A:Like she sees evil in people that don't own slaves because they're part of a system that, that benefits from it indirectly.
Speaker A:And, and you know, that's, that's kind of extreme to hold people who don't have anything to do with something accountable for those crimes or whatever.
Speaker A:That's not how rational people act.
Speaker A:But anyway, so.
Speaker A:Oh, and then also George questions her marriage to Grady and he, I don't remember if it's her face or about her, but he's, he, he wants to know if it's a marriage or a political statement.
Speaker A:Yeah, Yeah, I thought that was interesting.
Speaker B:Well, because even us as the audience, you're kind of wondering that as well because you just can't tell.
Speaker B:Like she's, she's so crazy and it's very obvious she's so crazy.
Speaker B:I mean, she's talking about like, they need to burn and the only things will be cleansed in blood and all this stuff.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And she even says it later in episode six.
Speaker B:So you just kind of don't know if her marriage to this man who's an escape slave from the south who made it north, is real or if she's doing it just because that's where her kind of crazy headspace is.
Speaker B:She keeps saying that she loves him and some of the emotion that she shows later, like after.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Spoiler alert.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's shot at Harper's Ferry.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker C:Well, she's rather showing is like the radical right.
Speaker C:The radical left.
Speaker C:Right, so she's the radical right.
Speaker C:She's radical.
Speaker C:Like you said, she's so insulting to Ori that he doesn't see anything but her insults.
Speaker C:He's not going to get any message from her because all he feels is that she doesn't see him as a person anyway.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And that, that is the, the, the curse that people like her have to live with is people are so turned off to their just their demeanor, their presence that they can't hear the message because they're so offensive to all their senses.
Speaker A:Else's senses.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:So nothing gets changed.
Speaker C:They don't.
Speaker C:They don't get their agenda.
Speaker C:They don't get any.
Speaker C:So instead they just look radical.
Speaker C:People want to do away with them, but because he, he.
Speaker C:Because Ori insulted her and it is George's sister.
Speaker C:George asks Ori to leave.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:And so they have this fight.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that's where Ori takes Bryn and they get on this train.
Speaker C:And as they get on this train, that's when they're stopped at Harpers Ferry.
Speaker C:And I looked it up, they actually did stop a train and they have the name of the train.
Speaker C:They stopped that train in Harper's Ferry.
Speaker C: So this is October of: Speaker C:And Ori, again, he is as much as insulted as he is.
Speaker C:He's a smart guy and he's still trying to bring Virgilia around to reason.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:That this is not going to work.
Speaker C:This is dangerous.
Speaker C:You're going to die.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You're not going to get your point across here.
Speaker C:He's still.
Speaker C:He kind of at that point disregards all the things that's been said about him and he's still trying.
Speaker A:Well, it's his.
Speaker A:It's his best friend's sister.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he loves his best friend so much that he extends that love to his family, even the member of the family who treats him like.
Speaker A:Because he doesn't want to see the pain it'll cause everybody else.
Speaker A:Or at least that's what I think a person in that situation would do.
Speaker A:But also Constance, she says before this scene, at the end of the previous scene, she says something like, ori and George have ruined their friendship, fighting over what's wrong with this country.
Speaker A:And how familiar does that sound today?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:I thought it was a great metaphor.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, but so I, I'm sorry, I keep going back and you're trying to get us to.
Speaker C:No, no, no, but I agree with that.
Speaker C:But yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I just thought that was like an important point there because it's not only relevant today, but at that time, so many relationships, friendships, familial relationships, were ruined because people were fighting over what was wrong with the country.
Speaker A:And that's as human and as old as the day is long, that whole thing.
Speaker A:But back to the train who shows up along with.
Speaker C:So because he can't get to Virgilia, he tries to reason with Grady.
Speaker B:Grady shows up.
Speaker B:Grady's riding with John Brown and that whole crowd.
Speaker C:And Grady does kind of agree with him.
Speaker C:He's telling Virgilio to go, you're right, Ori, you're right.
Speaker C:This is not going to end up well.
Speaker C:And then it's the slave that ran away.
Speaker C:That or.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, he, he, he shows up and he basically saves Ori.
Speaker A:Yeah, he does.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But Ori, when he sees prime, you could see the heartbreak.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:And that's the thing that's so uncomfortable about that whole situation is clearly this is someone he grew up with.
Speaker A:They're roughly the same age, I think.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's like this heartbreak that, oh, my God, you're doing this.
Speaker A:Like, you're all gonna get killed.
Speaker A:Like, don't you see this can't work.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Ori takes on that kind of head of household caretaker as soon as he sees prime, and he's just like, oh, exactly like you're describing it for our listeners.
Speaker B:He just kind of gets, you see that disappointment.
Speaker B:He's like, oh, man, this can't end well.
Speaker B:You guys are not in a good.
Speaker B:This is not the way to do this.
Speaker C:Ori's not even fearful of his life.
Speaker C:He's just telling them that your guys are gonna die.
Speaker C:And what's interesting is prime makes a comment here that life isn't better up north for him.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:He tells him that he's kind of disenchanted by everything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He says, people treat me just as poorly up here.
Speaker B:And so he kind of talks about that.
Speaker B:I was a little, a little surprise.
Speaker A:But Freedom of the Week just wasn't what I thought it would be.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:The prejudice doesn't go away just because you're in the north.
Speaker A:And I think that's the beauty of north and south is, you know, I never read the books, but we're making fun of the soap opera aspect of the whole thing.
Speaker A:But I think you gotta hand it to John Jakes because, you know, I watched an interview with him and he said that, you know, even though it's fiction, I hadn't know what I was talking about.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I had to do a lot of reading and research into all these events and to be able to believably put these characters there.
Speaker A:And in doing so, he also has to understand the arguments and to think about it, like, if you're going to accurately represent what these characters represent, then you really have to understand the ins and outs of their arguments.
Speaker A:And so you gotta hand it to them there, because that's a point that you really don't even.
Speaker A:You don't even.
Speaker A:I mean, I've interviewed a lot of authors who are writing these university press books now, and they're very, you know, all these micro histories and they're very, very like in the weeds specific and stuff.
Speaker A:But the ones about race, I'm delighted to hear that they are acknowledging that even up north blacks weren't treated well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that even some abolitionist groups were like, yeah, we're just against slavery, but let's not go crazy with this equality thing.
Speaker A:And I always, by no means am I a Southern sympathizer, but I have a real problem with people who only see the other guy as bad and completely ignore the bad things done in their name.
Speaker A:And so, you know, the north was not, whether it's the Northern armies or the Northern people, they just weren't the nice guys.
Speaker A:They were the right guys, but they weren't the nice guys.
Speaker A:And even though they were on the right side, they didn't always do the right thing in the.
Speaker A:In the process of achieving victory.
Speaker A:And I like that they added that in there.
Speaker A:That Priam is the one who says that, because that's absolutely true.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's one of those things that I've been continually impressed.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:This being my first time watching these.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We kind of joked the first couple episodes we were recording these that I was the fresh eyes.
Speaker B:But I've been continually impressed that one the historical fairly accurate as far as what they're doing.
Speaker B:Maybe not some of the 80s hair types, right.
Speaker B:Hairstyles.
Speaker B:But, you know, as far as like the.
Speaker B:It's one of those things is like true life is almost stranger than fiction type type things.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Going through this lead up to the Civil War.
Speaker B:And really, like you said, when John Jakes, the author of this book, when he painted this painting, he didn't focus on just the fight part of the painting.
Speaker B:He focused.
Speaker B:He kind of put detail and context and took his time to paint the whole picture.
Speaker B:And that's what.
Speaker B:I've just been so impressed by this miniseries.
Speaker B:You know, we stopped, you know, we stopped at episode six.
Speaker B:So I haven't watched when this Civil War actually started.
Speaker B:Like, we got all the way up to the very end.
Speaker B:And we'll talk about episode six here in just a second.
Speaker B:But I mean, I kind of want to watch the next couple episodes of book two, so I get to see, you know, kind of are we only.
Speaker A:Doing up to the end of book one, or are we doing book two as well?
Speaker B:For.
Speaker B:For these, for now?
Speaker B:I mean, maybe if we want to do book.
Speaker B:Book two later, but we'll.
Speaker A:But that's the best part.
Speaker B:Well, that, that, that'll be the.
Speaker B:That'll be the draw to bring people and be like, hey, you need to go watch this miniseries.
Speaker A:We'll do it over summer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm definitely going to watch it because I've enjoyed this more than I expected because it's not just a history show.
Speaker B:It's not just a soap opera.
Speaker B:It's a masterful kind of mix of both.
Speaker C:And I think exactly what Scott's saying, what you said too, Matt.
Speaker C:They have gone so deep in the empathy for both men that you really feel for both men, that this bromance is so strong that they really.
Speaker C:They emphasize it.
Speaker C:That's why I think this first season ends at the start of the Civil War, because you see how strong this relationship is between these two men.
Speaker C:And the only thing that's going to put them on opposite sides is going to be a Civil War.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And you feel so much for both of them because you've seen good and bad from both of them.
Speaker C:And he's done a really good job making you empathize well with someone from the south, which it's hard to do because people think if you empathize with someone from the south, you must agree with slavery.
Speaker C:And that's not true.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You're just.
Speaker C:What he does is he's humanizing these.
Speaker A:Characters so that you're talking about John Jakes and all the information he put in the books that they turned into the movies.
Speaker A:How about this?
Speaker A:I was on the way in here, I was listening to an interview with.
Speaker A:I forget his name.
Speaker A:The guy who plays George.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:A couple years ago, this British kid did.
Speaker A:I don't know how he did this, but he interviewed basically every living actor from the movie for the 40th anniversary of.
Speaker A:So it would have been last year of South.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And it's all done this way, you know, through whom or whatever.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But, but.
Speaker A:And then he.
Speaker A:I think so he.
Speaker A:He's put out the full interviews with each of the actors and.
Speaker A:But he made it his own documentary, taking snippets from the actors.
Speaker A:So I was watching the full one with George and he was saying, the question was, you know, because this is so immense and you guys are aged through the years.
Speaker A:Everybody's age.
Speaker A:Did you shoot it in sequence or did you shoot it out of sequence like movies typically do?
Speaker A:And George was like, no, we shot this out of sequence.
Speaker A:Which, wow.
Speaker A:More impressive because you got to think all the different locations.
Speaker A:They didn't have a bunch of different locations in South Carolina.
Speaker A:They had South Carolina, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana.
Speaker A:And they all have to double as different places.
Speaker A:So you gotta take this whole cast and crew to all these places and think of the consistency, the continuity that you have to have scars, you know, gray.
Speaker A:Graying.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I thought that, you know, because you pointed out how baby faced Patrick Swayze is in the beginning when we were doing the first two episodes, but.
Speaker C:Now he looks almost heavier.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, I had assumed that it had taken them years to do and they shot it in sequence.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Because they had to show them aging.
Speaker A:But no, they shot it out of sequence.
Speaker A:Which is even more impressive to me.
Speaker A:You know, I'm thinking, I'm like, God, the.
Speaker A:Just how complicated that is.
Speaker A:Actor schedules.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, this one's going to do a movie.
Speaker A:So he's not available these days, but everybody else is.
Speaker A:But we need to shoot these scenes at this place because we have patient for that.
Speaker A:Well, we're gonna have to get that location later when he's available again and shoot his shots and use body doubles for the wide shot.
Speaker A:You know, like it.
Speaker A:It's so complicated to do that.
Speaker A:And just thinking, comparing it to what I do and I'm like a one man show and I can't keep up with what I'm doing.
Speaker B:So we actually looked it up and then we'll kind of talk about the end of episode five and go into episode six.
Speaker B:But we looked it up and we were wondering if this show had won any awards.
Speaker B:And so we actually looked it up.
Speaker B:It did actually win some Emmys for costume.
Speaker C:And I will say why I asked it at a specific point in episode six because I thought the costumes were on Mark and I said, did this win any awards for costumes?
Speaker C:Because these costumes are great.
Speaker C:And he looked it up and he said they did.
Speaker B:And I'll tell you what, it said that there were some other.
Speaker B:They won some Emmys for some other like more technical stuff.
Speaker B:But the big one was they won for costume and design, which I could totally believe.
Speaker C:But real quick, at Harpers Ferry, just know that Lee's in command there.
Speaker C:Robert E. Lee is actually in command.
Speaker C:When they go, the army comes to Harper's Ferry, they don't show him, but they show Jedb Stewart.
Speaker C:He's gonna.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:He's gonna approve the.
Speaker C:He's gonna.
Speaker C:He's gonna be approaching the engine house.
Speaker C:They're gonna.
Speaker C:So that's someone who you're Gonna see in the Civil War.
Speaker A:And then true that he actually was the guy that approached the engine house.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So they do a good job with.
Speaker C:He does a good job with that.
Speaker C:I'm really impressed with the historical accuracy of this.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then we.
Speaker B:We see Grady shot and Kirsty Alley goes even further off the deep end.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:By the way, the.
Speaker A:You know, with the accuracy part.
Speaker A:John Brown did not approach the train.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Brown was back in Harpers Ferry.
Speaker A:He had guys and the train were.
Speaker C:Back in the fort.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The train, I believe, was stopped just outside the tunnel.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Inside the tunnel.
Speaker A:I don't think it made it to the station.
Speaker A:They wanted to stop it before it got to the station or.
Speaker A:I don't even know if it was stopping there.
Speaker A:It might have been moving on, if I recall.
Speaker A:And a black man was killed.
Speaker A:Yes, they show that, but it wasn't great.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, you had to get Johnny Cash on scene.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If they got him to say yes to a cameo or like, okay, we'll make you John Brown and you can approach the train.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We'll stretch the facts there a little bit.
Speaker B:But then by the end of episode five, we're back in South Carolina.
Speaker B:Or is it.
Speaker B:Or are we in New Orleans by.
Speaker B:By that point.
Speaker A:Because we go to Philadelphia at one point with Virgilia.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Virgilia's in the Saint asylum.
Speaker B:Oh, that's right.
Speaker B:That's this episode.
Speaker A:And what.
Speaker A:And that's actually, I think before.
Speaker A:No, that was after Harper's Ferry.
Speaker C:That's after Harper's Ferry.
Speaker C:Because Grady's killed.
Speaker C:She's kind of captured.
Speaker C:Let's imagine she's captured.
Speaker B:She's captured.
Speaker B:And they put her in the insane asylum.
Speaker C: ctually hanged in December of: Speaker C:So this will.
Speaker C:Sorry, I always say that.
Speaker C:1859.
Speaker C:And then.
Speaker C: I hate the: Speaker C:And so this has got to be in the New Year.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:She's in the same asylum.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The senator comes to get her out.
Speaker B:The one that has, like, a thing for.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Senator Green.
Speaker C:Odd, because they can't imagine a woman would be sane and a part of this, a white woman would not be sane and a part of it.
Speaker C:She's got to be insane.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I mean, they were.
Speaker B:They were kind of right with her.
Speaker B:I mean, she's.
Speaker B:She's.
Speaker B:She's crazy.
Speaker A:She felt right and insane.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:No, yeah.
Speaker A:That whole thing.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:What's his face on mash?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Senator Green.
Speaker B:Oh, yes.
Speaker C:Yes, he was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Was it Honeycutt?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, I. I don't remember all the characters on mash, but.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, that whole thing is.
Speaker A:That just gets creepier with Senator Green.
Speaker B:Yeah, he.
Speaker B:He gets her out.
Speaker B:Like, he has dinner with her house, and he's like.
Speaker B:He's basically making a pass at her.
Speaker C:He doesn't.
Speaker C:She doesn't even change her dress, and she.
Speaker B:She doesn't even change seats.
Speaker B:And then she just, like, splits.
Speaker B:And I was like, all right, gross.
Speaker A:See, I know.
Speaker A:He can't wait.
Speaker A:You know the other interesting detail?
Speaker A:When they're in Philadelphia.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that's where.
Speaker A:Where we go next to Philadelphia.
Speaker A:Virgilia, she is no fan of Lincoln.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And this is another great point is again, same side of the argument.
Speaker A:She is so extreme that Lincoln is.
Speaker A:Is not extreme enough.
Speaker C:He's a moderate because.
Speaker C:So he's.
Speaker C:He's not against slavery.
Speaker C:He's against the expansion of slavery.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So he's not against slavery in the states.
Speaker C:It's already established.
Speaker C:And he's against the expansion of the new states becoming slave states.
Speaker C:And so she wants this radical abolitionist.
Speaker C:Gert Smith, I think is his name.
Speaker C:That's who she supports.
Speaker C:I looked him up.
Speaker C:He was a radical abolitionist.
Speaker C:She thinks Lincoln is just not strong enough and that he's weak.
Speaker C:And she points that out.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, she's.
Speaker C:She's very much.
Speaker C:It goes to show you that as much as people today champion Lincoln, and Lincoln was the guy.
Speaker C:And Lincoln.
Speaker C:People forget that Lincoln was just trying to make peace, too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, he was like, whatever.
Speaker C:He.
Speaker C:He was appeasement, basically.
Speaker C:Like, what can you guys can stay slave states?
Speaker C:Just let's not.
Speaker C:You know, he wanted the expansion of free labor.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:For the north and for the people to have jobs.
Speaker C:And so he didn't want any more slave states to come.
Speaker C:But he was fine.
Speaker C:He actually was fine with the Fugitive Slave Act.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They show that in the next episode.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So they make the thing about Lincoln.
Speaker C:It's very interesting.
Speaker C:Like, she shows that not our.
Speaker C:Nor not our Northerners love Lincoln either.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Does he.
Speaker A:Does he like the Fugitive Slave act or.
Speaker A:I think his point to.
Speaker A:Who was he talking to?
Speaker B:Seward?
Speaker C:Stewart?
Speaker A:Yes, he was talking to Stewart.
Speaker A:I think his point to Seward was we've already given them the Fugitive Slave.
Speaker C:Act was like, he liked it.
Speaker A:He want.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Like, what more can we do?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And I took that as.
Speaker A:He actually doesn't like the Fugitive Slave act, but we've given it to these.
Speaker B:It was his compromise.
Speaker C:It's his compromise.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We compromised and gave it to him.
Speaker A:What more can they ask for?
Speaker A:What more do they want?
Speaker A:Why do they want more with us?
Speaker A:Because we're way ahead of ourselves.
Speaker A:But that's when he's going over his first inaugural address with Seward.
Speaker A:He's reading it to him, which I think great.
Speaker A:One of his greatest speeches, both of his inaugural.
Speaker A:But go ahead.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:Take us where you want to go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So really, by the end of episode five, we're back with Ashton and Brett and Billy back down in.
Speaker B:I think it's South Carolina.
Speaker C:South Carolina.
Speaker C:And they make it very clear.
Speaker C:They put the South Carolina flag out.
Speaker C:Yeah, they make it very even.
Speaker C:Sky was like, what flag is that?
Speaker B:Yeah, I didn't know.
Speaker C:Like that.
Speaker C:South Carolina's flag.
Speaker C:So what they're really pushing here is state rights.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:They're trying to show that they want their state flag even above the American flag, because this is representative.
Speaker B:Yeah, they throw the American flag off the balcony.
Speaker C:So they're showing South Carolina will be the first state to secede.
Speaker C:And really, a lot of it starts there.
Speaker C:And so I kind of like that they're foreshadowing that by putting out the South Carolina flag.
Speaker A:And she's wearing a secession bonnet.
Speaker A:Y.
Speaker B:She's wearing that.
Speaker B:And then Billy Hazard.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So George's youngest brother, I think, is down there as a Northern, you know, kind of Yankee soldier.
Speaker C:Well, represents everybody at the time.
Speaker B:Yeah, represents everybody at the time.
Speaker B:But he's down there at the.
Speaker B:At the fort, kind of with Sullivan Island.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he.
Speaker B:He's down there, and then he's trying to.
Speaker B:To figure out a way where, you know, day and time where he.
Speaker B:He can marry Brett, intentions are building.
Speaker A:Their hope is that their marriage will bring their families together.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:But as long as Ashton and Virgilia are members of.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh, those two.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And Ori's still mad about the thing that happened with George and Virgilia, and so much so that he's not giving his permission.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:They have a little Brett.
Speaker B:So Orey keeps telling Brett his.
Speaker B:His argument is, you know, what kind of life are you going to have?
Speaker B:Like, what are you.
Speaker B:What life are you going to have if you marry this northern Yankee soldier?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, I understand.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:He gets it.
Speaker B:And that's kind of why he continues to say no, that.
Speaker B:And this kind of.
Speaker B:This friction that was created with, you know, his best friend George that has pushed him.
Speaker A:He's drunk, and he slaps her.
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker B:But then she.
Speaker B:She kind of.
Speaker B:She comes right back at him and because she's.
Speaker B:She's yelling at him saying, hey, I can't wait for you to get it together.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:For me to get married.
Speaker B:So she kind of finally calls him out because he's just been kind of putting his head down and working and saying no to.
Speaker A:No to.
Speaker B:No to everything.
Speaker B:She finally calls him out and then he gets trashed and he slaps her.
Speaker A:This is another example of what a actually good actor Patrick Swayze was.
Speaker A:When he slaps her before he even withdraws his hand back to his side, he regrets it.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:He says, I'm sorry, and he is about to cry because he hurt his baby sister.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he's so into this that.
Speaker A:What is it I said here?
Speaker A:Ori slaps Brett and immediately regrets it and apologizes, then cries with snot and drool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, that's some acting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I do think Patrick Swayze is the best actor.
Speaker A:Good actor.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I do think Patrick Swayze gives the best performance in all of this.
Speaker C:I will say that.
Speaker C:Even though he does go on to become probably the more The A list 1 besides Elizabeth Taylor and those in there.
Speaker C:But I just feel like his acting is so good in this.
Speaker C:He really.
Speaker C:It's why it's so interesting.
Speaker C:He's playing a Southerner because he really makes you empathize with him.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because I think his acting is so good.
Speaker B:The very end of episode five is Billy being told by his lieutenant that he cannot see his fiance because he's been recalled off of leave because things are starting to get tense.
Speaker B:So then that's the end of episode five.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: th,: Speaker B:So we all know it's election season.
Speaker B:And so it's all about it leads off all with the election.
Speaker B:And so you kind of get to see their portrayal of what's going on with the election.
Speaker B:And everybody's talking about it.
Speaker B:And then obviously we all know that.
Speaker C:Lincoln in the White House.
Speaker B:Lincoln was put in the White House.
Speaker C:You see him talking about it like you said his inauguration.
Speaker C:And they're making fun of the Yanks illiteracy and things along that nature.
Speaker B:Well, and basically everybody's saying, and you'll know by then that everybody says if Lincoln's elected, South Carolina is going to secede.
Speaker B:And so everybody's saying it.
Speaker B:Billy's walking around and that's when you find out that's when you see the street gang, the One Eyed Jack as a.
Speaker B:As I kept calling him, there's a Guy with an eye patch.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:For our listeners.
Speaker B:So street gang led by a guy with an eye patch, which is a classic bad guy move, are figure out a way to.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They kind of accost Billy as he's walking with Brett.
Speaker C:It's not like they're even watching him.
Speaker C:They're like sitting right beside him, watching, peering at him, and then right behind him, peering at him like he' crappy soldier if he doesn't realize this guy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Especially because they were in a nice restaurant too, and this.
Speaker B:And this thug with an eyepatch was also in the nice restaurant.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:That whole street gang thing.
Speaker A:Because the one guy with the eyepatch, like, walks past Billy and then goes up ahead and hides behind a gate.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And before Billy even passes the gate, the guy's already coming out.
Speaker A:Like he knows he's there.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:So he gets behind.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they have a whole big thing and they, they run away and elude the gang, but fails.
Speaker B:But, but then you.
Speaker B:But then you figure out, right then you.
Speaker B:All of a sudden, Ashton's back at home.
Speaker B:She's chatting with her husband about secession stuff that's going on.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, somebody's at the door and.
Speaker B:And the, you know, the servant comes up, you know, the enslaved comes up, says, you know, Ms. Ashton, you've got somebody at the door for you.
Speaker B:It says, it's business.
Speaker B:She comes to the door and it's One Eyed Jack.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, no.
Speaker B:Ashton hired this person.
Speaker B:He's like, I want my money.
Speaker B:Did you kill him?
Speaker C:$20 gold.
Speaker A:$20 to.
Speaker A:To split up with his buddies.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously $20 was more back then, but like, yeah, that was.
Speaker A:I thought that was strange.
Speaker C:And he was supposed to kill him like this lets you know how bad Ashton is.
Speaker C:She wants to kill Billy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, it's awful.
Speaker C:Awful.
Speaker B:She hired an assassin.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they both.
Speaker A:But again, she and Virgilia both think that murder is proper in order to advance their cause.
Speaker A:And that's a crazy person.
Speaker C:That's a crazy person.
Speaker B:Definitely a crazy person.
Speaker B:Then, oh, George visits, we get the bros back together.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I do want to say one thing, though, about.
Speaker C:I think it was when.
Speaker C:When I. Jack was with his crew and Billy was walking by in the blue uniform and the guys in gray were kind of looking at him.
Speaker C:Those colors, gray and blue for the north and the south hadn't been decided yet.
Speaker A:No, but those guys could have been a part of a militia unit.
Speaker A:And there were militia units that wore gray.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker B:Like a South Carolina.
Speaker C:And there could be some foreshadowing there.
Speaker C:Just.
Speaker C:Just know that there wasn't like this decision yet, that the south was going to be represented in gray and the north was in blue.
Speaker C:That wasn't.
Speaker C:That wasn't figured.
Speaker A:Well, let's.
Speaker A:Since you brought up uniforms, let's talk about Billy's.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Billy's in the engineers.
Speaker A:He has the engineer castle on his hat.
Speaker A:His shoulder boards are a second lieutenant in the cavalry.
Speaker A:The yellow means cap.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:And that drives me nuts.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's the whole time in 5, 6.
Speaker A:Just wanted to share that.
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker B:I mean, that's a good call out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, they can get a good portion of the stuff accurate.
Speaker B:But you know, the uniform stuff, you know that they needed like a civil.
Speaker C:It's not that hard.
Speaker B:They needed a Civil War consultant.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They needed somebody from the Civil War.
Speaker A:I'm sure they did just open a bullet.
Speaker A:And that's the thing.
Speaker A:But I'll bet you like the cinematographer or somebody in costumes, wardrobes was like.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I just like that.
Speaker A:Yellow just really looks good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Let's put on.
Speaker C:No one's gonna know.
Speaker C:No one's gonna know.
Speaker B:What was the correct color?
Speaker B:Was that the red that we saw?
Speaker A:No, red is artillery.
Speaker A:I believe the engineers were black.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:So you wouldn't even notice.
Speaker C:It wouldn't show up well on camera.
Speaker C:Better.
Speaker A:Yeah, it would.
Speaker A:It would.
Speaker A:I'll tell you here, hold on.
Speaker A:I can show you because I have these.
Speaker A:These are colonel's shoulder boards.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And I believe the black background was for staff officers.
Speaker A:And I want to say Eng.
Speaker A:Engineers.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:As well.
Speaker A:And maybe even medical.
Speaker C:So he would have had the gold braiding on the outside.
Speaker C:So it's standing out a little bit.
Speaker A:The braiding would have been there.
Speaker A:Yeah, I. I don't think they call it braiding.
Speaker A:I forget what they call that.
Speaker A:But this, it would have been.
Speaker A:It would have looked like this and it would have been.
Speaker A:It would have had no insignia because the second lieutenant was just an empty.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Shoulder board.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I guarantee you there's some uniform Nazi out there who's going to correct something I just said.
Speaker A:But I think I'm right for the most part.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Well, we know that it wasn't accurate then.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:He said no, he's not Calvary, so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And later on, he doesn't even go into the cavalry.
Speaker A:So now.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But I don't.
Speaker A:So is he or isn't he?
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:Is he in the Engineers.
Speaker A:I forget, when he was in West Point, did they have that?
Speaker B:He was, he said he was going to the Engineers.
Speaker B:That's what he said he was doing.
Speaker A:So then.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So then the cavalry thing is wrong.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Be there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:George made his way back down south to visit Ori.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:He surprises him.
Speaker C:Save their bromance.
Speaker B:And I wrote down he's holding a.
Speaker A:Boombox over his head.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, but he was so sweet.
Speaker B:But I, but I wrote down George is visiting Ori.
Speaker B:The mustache.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Oh, George is.
Speaker B:George has got a solid stash now.
Speaker A:It was aging.
Speaker A:They're getting old.
Speaker B:They're starting to gray a little bit.
Speaker B:And I think that was a.
Speaker B:That was a pretty, that was a pretty emotional scene.
Speaker B:I mean, even, Even for me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, it was a little dusty, you know, downstairs.
Speaker B:And they, I mean, they kind of truly.
Speaker B:He, he comes in and says, you know, I shouldn't have let what Frigilia said.
Speaker B:I shouldn't have let that kind of keep us apart.
Speaker B:And he, and he apologized and then Ori, like, classic best friend, he's like, I mean, I'll put it in my words.
Speaker B:He says, damn it, now I can't apologize.
Speaker B:You're making me look bad.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so then he just kind of comes over and they hug it out.
Speaker B:And it was a good scene.
Speaker B:It's just such a heartwarming scene.
Speaker A:Is this the other time he was bringing money?
Speaker A:No, he wasn't bringing money.
Speaker B:That's later in this episode.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:George, like comes down to the south and surprises him and apologizes.
Speaker C:It's so sweet.
Speaker C:It's like a face to face apology.
Speaker A:And was this when George says.
Speaker A:Or when.
Speaker A:When Orey says, how come you didn't let me know you were coming?
Speaker A:And he said, because I. I didn't want you to tell me.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I didn't want to give you the chance to say, to tell me not to.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:So that was the other thing they discussed was Billy and what?
Speaker A:They get married.
Speaker B:Bryn.
Speaker C:Brett.
Speaker C:Whatever her name is.
Speaker C:Brett Bryn.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They discover that and they agree.
Speaker A:Let's let the kids get married.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:And let's go tell them ourselves.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's so sweet.
Speaker C:It's like bromance is stronger than family.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:It's true though.
Speaker A:That is true.
Speaker A:They call that a chosen family now, I think.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Wants to tell them together.
Speaker C:They go to Charleston together to tell them together.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker C:And yes.
Speaker C:Then South Carolina secedes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So they're.
Speaker B:They're kind of Given permission to Brett and Billy.
Speaker B:You can tell it's Christmas time.
Speaker B:They had, like, a Christmas tree there in.
Speaker B:Wherever they were.
Speaker B:But then as they're kind of celebrating this, you know, permission, Lieutenant Mead comes to get Billy.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:Mead.
Speaker B:So he knocks on the door, and he comes right in, says, billy, we gotta go.
Speaker B:And he says, mead, what's going on?
Speaker B:And so I'll leave is canceled because essentially, tensions.
Speaker B:The tensions are high.
Speaker B:And then, you know, next it's December 20th, and South Carolina secedes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And Billy, they're stationed at Fort Moultrie at this point.
Speaker A:They're not at Fort Sumter yet.
Speaker A:They don't.
Speaker A:Over there.
Speaker A:Yeah, eventually, because Fort Moultrie.
Speaker A:They abandoned Fort Moultrie to go to Sumter.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So then Sumter is, I guess, placed on alert on December 26th after secession.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, the one thing that I.
Speaker B:The one note that I have here is I say Ashton finally shows her true colors.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That night of secession.
Speaker B:Oh, finally.
Speaker B:So everybody's out there celebrating, and so George is still there.
Speaker B:So George is still there with his visit.
Speaker B:He's down there with Ori.
Speaker B:And Ori's like, hey, do you want to go outside and kind of watch, you know, essentially this.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The downfall of the South.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because Ori knows, like, this is not.
Speaker C:A good thing, or he knows it's.
Speaker B:Not a good thing, or he knows it's not a good thing.
Speaker B:But everybody's out there.
Speaker B:There's fireworks and people are celebrating and all this stuff.
Speaker B:And so they're there.
Speaker B:It's the three of them, because Billy has just left to go back to his fort.
Speaker B:So it's George, Ori, and Brent.
Speaker B:And up comes Ashton, and she's like, hooting, hollering, and saying the south is seceded.
Speaker B:And then she insults George.
Speaker C:Just like Virgilia and swords.
Speaker B:She insults George.
Speaker C:So insulting.
Speaker B:Brett says, hey, how can you say something like that?
Speaker B:Like, you should celebrate with me.
Speaker B:Like, they just gave us permission, me to marry Billy.
Speaker B:And then Ashton basically says, damn you or damn the union.
Speaker B:Damn the union.
Speaker B:And damn you are union.
Speaker B:And that's when I wrote down, Ashton finally shows her true colors.
Speaker B:She can't.
Speaker A:The mask has come off.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that was kind of a big reveal moment, which Brett, being the sister, she should have known this decades prior because, you know, your siblings.
Speaker A:That's the thing I don't get is how Brett is so ditzy that she doesn't know her sister is the worst human being on the planet.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:That Part.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's so funny how Ashton and Virgilia, both beautiful women, right?
Speaker A:The actresses.
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:And this goes to show, ladies and gentlemen, that looks don't matter because when they go into full on crazy mode for their characters, I find them to be the ugliest people physically and otherwise on the show.
Speaker A:And it really is true.
Speaker A:I remember my cousin said this to me when I was a teenage.
Speaker A:She was older and I was a teenager and I had my first, you know, broken heart or whatever, and I was all mopey and everything and.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:We're talking about dating and she's like, yeah, it's gonna suck.
Speaker A:You're gonna get dumped, you know, a bunch more times.
Speaker A:And, you know, and whatever.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And she goes, but you gotta stop worrying about pretty faces.
Speaker A:And I go, what?
Speaker A:And she's like, she goes, some of the guys that I've dated that were really good looking were.
Speaker A:They became very ugly to me.
Speaker A:Like, I couldn't look at them anymore because they were really bad people.
Speaker A:And some dorky, average looking guy who's really nice and funny and smart suddenly became the sexiest thing to me.
Speaker A:And I was like, please, sexy.
Speaker C:Please don't say that word.
Speaker A:But I was like, that's ridiculous.
Speaker C:Who.
Speaker A:That's the craziest thing ever.
Speaker A:And then you get older and you find out.
Speaker A:That's exactly right.
Speaker A:And it works here too.
Speaker A:It's like, you know, they're very pretty women, but once their characters go that way, like, they're just ugly to me.
Speaker B:Yeah, they just.
Speaker B:They just make your.
Speaker B:Your skin crawl.
Speaker B:Like, every time I see Ashton, I'm just like, ugh.
Speaker C:You want nothing to do with either.
Speaker C:You want nothing to do with either of them.
Speaker C:Away from them.
Speaker C:Like, go away.
Speaker A:When Ashton shows her true colors and she, you know, leaves them on the porch and goes back with the rabble, she sees Forbes.
Speaker B:Oh, that's right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And they go off to conspire to ruin the marriage of Billy and Brett over some hot sex.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I mean, that's.
Speaker B:That's how Ashton does it, right?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker A:Yeah, we saw her at Westworld.
Speaker C:She's consistent.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, she.
Speaker B:She is consistent.
Speaker B:She is consistent.
Speaker A:And I also put in here Huntoon and Ashton seem like brainwashed zealots like Virgilia.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:They're cut from the same cloth, which is so funny to me because I think.
Speaker B:I don't know if Huntoon, I think he's.
Speaker B:I don't know if he's much a zealot.
Speaker B:I think he's just an opportunist.
Speaker B:That he kind of strikes me as like one of the rich Southerners who just wants the south to be the South.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's very much kind of.
Speaker B:Just kind of cares about himself and cares about a Yankee, stay out of our business type.
Speaker B:He didn't strike me as a zealot like, I. I could.
Speaker B:I got the impression from his character that he didn't really care, but because what the north was doing was affecting what he.
Speaker B:What his little dominion in the south, like, that's the impression I got from his character.
Speaker B:He was a little more laissez faire and.
Speaker B:And just kind of doing what Ashton's doing because he's a playboy and.
Speaker B:And, hey, you know, sure, I'll go kill a guy for you.
Speaker A:I think he.
Speaker A:I think you're right.
Speaker A:Like, he's a little more that.
Speaker A:But I think I probably wrote that because I'd already watched an episode passed, and I go, oh, I forgot to take notes on this one.
Speaker A:So I. Oh, yeah, I went back.
Speaker A:Is when the war starts.
Speaker A:Oh, he is more zealous than.
Speaker A:Than before.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He grows into it.
Speaker A:He's still all of what you said.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But he adds zealotry to it as well.
Speaker A:He's also ambitious and.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I don't want to ruin the war for everybody, so we'll get to that later.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You wanted to move on to February.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker C:Well, I just remember when she's sitting on the porch with her mother.
Speaker C:Brynn, is it?
Speaker C:Bryn Brett's sitting on the porch with her mother and they talk about Texas.
Speaker C:It's just Brett.
Speaker A:Oh, damn it.
Speaker B:I gotta write it backwards now.
Speaker A:It worked.
Speaker C:It's hard for you to think of Brett as a girl.
Speaker C:Girl.
Speaker C:But yes, Brett, she's talking to her mom on the porch.
Speaker C:Her mom is Gene Simmons, too, so I forgot.
Speaker C:Gene Simmons is in Guys and Dolls.
Speaker B:Huh?
Speaker A:From kids.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's why I saw Gene Simmons.
Speaker C:I was like, no, she's an actor.
Speaker C:She's from Guys and Dolls.
Speaker C:That's kind of what I remember her from.
Speaker C:She's a famous actress as well.
Speaker C:Not like Elizabeth Taylor status, but.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker C:And she taught.
Speaker C:And they talk about Texas seceding Now, in order, South Carolina's first in December.
Speaker C:In January, you get a lot.
Speaker C:You get Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia and Louisiana.
Speaker C:And then February 1st, you get Texas.
Speaker C:So if they're talking about that, it's after February 1st, they're sitting on the Porch.
Speaker C:And that's when they're worried if Charles is going to come back.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because Charles, if you remember.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They were talking about Charles being down there with his army unit.
Speaker C:And so that's kind of.
Speaker C:That's the next place we're at, is that.
Speaker C:And then you see Fort Supner after.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So Charles, he's down south in the United States Army.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Exist the seeds.
Speaker A:And now who's his buddy?
Speaker C:People pick their sides, so I didn't.
Speaker B:Know who his buddy was.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Because they.
Speaker B:They show the scene of Charles down in Texas, and I love it because he's, like, wearing, like, the raw high.
Speaker B:The rawhide jacket and all that stuff, and he's all confident now and.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it's not the Charles Maine that we were first introduced to.
Speaker B:He's kind of grown into this man, into a soldier, gets down there and he's talking to somebody that he's close with.
Speaker B:I don't think they said his name, but he's saying, this doesn't make any sense.
Speaker B:How come one day we were all fighting together, we've all been down here, and now just because some politicians say that we've split, we can't be on the same side anymore.
Speaker B:He's like, I'm not going to stand for that.
Speaker B:And so he's talking to his friend.
Speaker B:He's like, I'm never going to.
Speaker B:You've saved my life.
Speaker B:And this, that, and the other.
Speaker B:And his friend, who's from.
Speaker B:I think he's from the north, says, you know, I agree, like, I would never fight against you, but he's leaving with the other Northern soldiers to basically take whoever's from the North.
Speaker B:The Northern contingent, they're going to ride off back to the north, and then the Southern contingent is, I think, staying with Texas, which.
Speaker A:And then this part was good, too, because there's a part in.
Speaker A:I don't remember if it's this episode or the previous one I had in my notes, but we didn't cover.
Speaker A:No, it's.
Speaker A:It's episode five, Justin.
Speaker A:There's a scene with Justin Lamott, and he's talking with somebody, probably Forbes, and they're talking about how Southern cadets are leaving West Point.
Speaker B:Oh, that's right.
Speaker A:He's very excited and proud of them.
Speaker A:And he says, I'm going to start my.
Speaker A:I'm going to raise my own regiment.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we see that in.
Speaker A:In the previous episode that these Southern guys are leaving West Point.
Speaker A:And now we're seeing the other side of that, where A northern contingent of a United States unit way down in Texas.
Speaker A:I mean, how far away from the north can you get?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And way down in Texas, they've got to leave now and go through all these states to get back to safe territory.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But, yeah, and so.
Speaker A:And also you just.
Speaker A:While you were describing that, it kind of made me realize, like, George and Ori, they're the older generation who've already served in a war.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker A:They're veterans, they're businessmen now.
Speaker A:They're family men.
Speaker A:And their outlook on the whole thing is a little more nuanced and mature and informed.
Speaker A:But now here we're looking at the young guys, 18, 20 years old, and they're, well, why do I have to do that?
Speaker A:We're comrades.
Speaker A:Like, we've.
Speaker A:Together, we've protected each other.
Speaker A:Now I have to go and fight against you.
Speaker A:But then, of course, once they get out of the cabin, they find out that there's other guys that are perfectly willing to switch like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, well.
Speaker B:And so his friend mentions that.
Speaker B:He's like, hey, let me walk out first, because half of these, a bunch of these guys have already think that you're doing bad things right, which just kind of shows the insanity of the whole situation.
Speaker B:And then he gets out there, he fights with a corporal or a sergeant or something like that, because I think he says, thanks for saving me from, you know, that Indian or something like, thanks for saving my.
Speaker B:My scalp, because I should have let him.
Speaker B:And he's like, I should have let him.
Speaker B:And then he calls him on it, beats him up a little bit.
Speaker B:And then at the Northern contingent, rides off.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And then I think.
Speaker B:Is that when he resigns his commission as well?
Speaker B:Because he.
Speaker B:He resigns.
Speaker B:Charles resigns his commission there, does he?
Speaker B:In Texas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he writes it on lines from the U.S. army.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He writes it on a note, put.
Speaker B:Puts on a nail.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:Because it's February 18th.
Speaker B:And somebody else says, hey, what are you doing?
Speaker B:He's like, well, there's nobody around for.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To take this from me, so I'm just going to leave it here.
Speaker B:I figure that should do.
Speaker B:He puts his jacket back on, looking all, you know, western, and he decides he's going to head back home to South Carolina.
Speaker A:Billy.
Speaker A:With Custer before Custer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker A:He does do that.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And then we're back to.
Speaker C:Friend and Bailey's wedding.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Charleston.
Speaker A:I want to say Chancellorsville.
Speaker A:And I'm like, that's not right.
Speaker A:Where?
Speaker A:Charleston.
Speaker A:But before the wedding, Major Anderson transfers Billy to Washington.
Speaker C:Yes, yes, that's right.
Speaker A:Is going to Esco or expedite the whole marriage thing.
Speaker A:He's got to get married.
Speaker A:Anderson's like, well, you got to leave tomorrow, so you better get going.
Speaker B:We were trying to remember where that.
Speaker B:That actor.
Speaker A:I was just going to say he's been in a lot of things and I almost looked him up today, but.
Speaker B:But I can picture him in probably 10 movies, but I could not.
Speaker C:I pictured him and my cousin Vinnie.
Speaker C:I told Scott, he's my cousin Vinny.
Speaker C:He's the expert on the autos.
Speaker C:He's the expert on the.
Speaker C:On the cars.
Speaker C:And Marisa Tomei goes up and he's like, you know, very impressive when she gives her testimony.
Speaker B:Yeah, he.
Speaker B:But that again, they had a whole bunch of actors from the 80s, right.
Speaker B:That were in this.
Speaker B:In this miniseries.
Speaker B:And so he transfers them up to D.C. and says, hey, you need to take.
Speaker B:I think he gave him like a message too.
Speaker B:He was giving him something to take up there and.
Speaker B:And then Billy's kind of him and ha.
Speaker B:And he's like, we all know why you don't want to go.
Speaker B:You know, and he gives him leave until like the next day.
Speaker B:And he's like, you know, you can go on leave for, you know, but by tomorrow, married or not, you're going to be on a train up to Washington D.C. right.
Speaker B:Billy Hightails it out of the fort to.
Speaker B:To run off to his new.
Speaker C:And then we get the scheme to kill Billy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:With like a duel.
Speaker C:And Meline hears it all.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Meline finally comes back into the story.
Speaker A:Out on the porch.
Speaker C:She's like.
Speaker A:She's.
Speaker C:She's wandering around la la la and her laudam.
Speaker C:Laudanum stupor.
Speaker C:And she hears this and all of a sudden all the memories come shooting back.
Speaker C:I know who Ori is and I care about him and I know who Billy is and I know what's happening and I gotta let them all know this.
Speaker C:And so she has a fight.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So this is.
Speaker A:And this is totally soap opera shit.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Everybody plotting to have people murdered and, you know, somebody overhears it and everything and it's just.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they're gonna.
Speaker A:They're gonna try to have what's his Forbes, challenge him to a duel and come out on the road and challenge.
Speaker B:Him to a duel.
Speaker B:Ashton's lover.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:For those listening.
Speaker B:So Ashton's lover, Forbes, who is the cousin, I think, to Justin, which is Madeline's horrible husband.
Speaker B:So him and Another friend, they're kind of sitting there plotting this scheme and they're saying, hey, here's some dueling pistols.
Speaker B:Essentially go out, track down Billy and Brett when they're leaving the wedding and they're heading back to the train and egg them on for a duel.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then they kind of imply, hey, you know, don't, don't put too much powder in one of these guns.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Essentially implying that they're going to cheat so that he can kill Billy to carry this out.
Speaker B:And Madeline overhears all of that and somehow in her drug induced state, she remembers all of this and realizes, oh, I've been sitting up in my room on drugs for the past year.
Speaker B:I should do something now.
Speaker C:Now I'm gonna do something.
Speaker B:And so she snaps out of it.
Speaker C:And just so we know, his name is James Rebhorn.
Speaker A:Reb Horn.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he's been in a lot of.
Speaker A:He's dead.
Speaker C: He passed away in: Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:But he's playing a lot of stuff.
Speaker A:Homeland, Basic Instinct.
Speaker A:Good life.
Speaker A:Basic Instinct.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He always plays like a detective or a school teacher all or something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then as the world turns Royal Pains, I'm skipping around Boston Legal Law, Independence Day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Commands out there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Book of Daniel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:A lot of stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was, it was fun to kind of see some of these actors.
Speaker B:Like, I know that face.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then we'd pause it.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We'd try to look, look someone up.
Speaker B:So Forbes.
Speaker C:Forbes leaves with his dude.
Speaker B:He leaves with his friend.
Speaker C:And Meline confronts Justin.
Speaker B:Justin, like it's the first time she's really truly confronted him.
Speaker C:And he, he wails on her face, man.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker C:Like this.
Speaker C:He hits her.
Speaker C:Good one.
Speaker C:And she's done.
Speaker A:She's finished.
Speaker C:She's finished.
Speaker C:She finds a sword.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:She, like, she's knocked against the wall, grabs this sword that she was knocked into and.
Speaker B:And she just like, she slices right down.
Speaker B:She gets him right across the eye.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And doesn't get his eye.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, kind of cuts down his face.
Speaker A:Doesn't even scratch his eye.
Speaker A:It goes right over the eye.
Speaker A:But the point doesn't go anywhere near it.
Speaker B:Yeah, but he's.
Speaker B:I mean they, they make it look like a headwind would look like.
Speaker B:And he's bleeding all over the place.
Speaker B:And she runs out.
Speaker B:She gets out, she jumps into a little horse and buggy that was sitting right there, I guess.
Speaker B:Ready for somebody.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The interesting thing is she yells, I.
Speaker A:Like how you leave your car in the driveway.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You got to have the horse Hitched and everything.
Speaker B:The horse hits, horse is hitched and ready to go.
Speaker B:So maybe, maybe the, maybe the, the inc. Enslaved there kind of knew something.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But she, she actually yells at them to go help Justin.
Speaker B:I noticed that when she, so she, she has, you know, Justin's hurt her.
Speaker B:Go, go help Justin.
Speaker B:And then she rides off and she rides off to Ori and that's.
Speaker B:Ori and Charles are there.
Speaker C:They give her sanctuary.
Speaker B:They give her sanctuary and she tells them what she overheard.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So this is what you were saying the other day, Matt was Ori tells Madeline, hey, we're going to take care of you.
Speaker B:I'm going to offer you sanctuary.
Speaker B:You're going to get a divorce on grounds of physical cruelty.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So then finally us as the audience are finally like, oh my gosh, they're finally going to get to be together.
Speaker B:He's going to save her.
Speaker B:He's going to bring her, bring her out of this.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So they get married and they got to get to the train.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because that was the whole premise.
Speaker C:Like, you got it.
Speaker C:They got married quickly.
Speaker C:And that's when I noticed her costume, her dress was impeccable.
Speaker C:And that's when I said to Scott, did they win anything for costuming?
Speaker C:Because her dress, when they get onto that wagon was impeccable.
Speaker C:I thought, whoever did that.
Speaker C:So that's when he said they did.
Speaker C:The men, not so much the women, which honestly, when you're watching north and the south, you're caring more about what the women's dresses anyway.
Speaker C:So I mean, I guess as a.
Speaker A:Woman I do but learned about clothing either way.
Speaker C:And so they get stopped along the road and he insults him.
Speaker C:It's, it's like a quick duel.
Speaker C:It's a quick duel, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker C:The decorum is fast.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:He slaps him across the face.
Speaker C:I challenge you to do it.
Speaker C:Like the, the decorum of dueling is very quickly done.
Speaker C:I have the guns right here.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I demand satisfaction.
Speaker C:Well, here we go.
Speaker C:We're all ready to go.
Speaker C:So we got to make a train.
Speaker C:So let's get this duel on the way.
Speaker C:So it's like they, because we've already kind of seen a duel in this.
Speaker C:They hurry through all of that.
Speaker A:Well, I think it's also that their goal is to kill the kid.
Speaker A:And, and I think he knows how to just get his, his ire up real quick.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and, and so he just goes straight to it.
Speaker A:And doesn't she even say like, no, this is a setup or she, she yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:She said something to like, they're ready.
Speaker B:She's like, this is, this is what they, this is what they want.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is what they want, right?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And she just sits in the wagon while they do it.
Speaker C:La la, la.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So then, then they show, right.
Speaker B:The, the duel.
Speaker B:And you could kind of been introduced to this duel process in some of the previous episodes when Charles had, had done the duel.
Speaker B:So as the audience, we're familiar with that, but they show the duel, but they also kind of show that they were, they were, they were sly and they didn't load enough gunpowder in one of the guns.
Speaker B:And that's the gun that they give to Billy.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so then they're, they're setting it.
Speaker C:Up and Charles comes just at the right moment.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Forbes is second, starts counting off the steps.
Speaker B:Then you see Charles riding in, you know, on his horse, just full speed.
Speaker B:And Forbes turns around, tries to take a shot.
Speaker B:Billy tries to take his shot.
Speaker B:And you could tell it misfires.
Speaker B:It doesn't fire enough or something like that.
Speaker B:Fighting.
Speaker A:Charred.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So not, not enough of a charge.
Speaker B:But then the fighting ensues and Charles is there to.
Speaker B:There to help out.
Speaker C:And Charles got his Bowie knife.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Like, I'm from Texas.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Charles like ready for fighting now.
Speaker B:Like he, he's rare and ready to go.
Speaker B:You know, he even tells the guy, he's like, yeah, you picked the wrong person for this fight.
Speaker B:You know, he's there having a good time.
Speaker A:Does turn into like an all out brawl.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, yeah, they're.
Speaker B:They're brawling.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And they're, they're struggling, they're grabbing for guns.
Speaker B:And Billy ultimately stabs Forbes Lamont and kills him right there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:With his, with his sword.
Speaker C:What's interesting about this Bowie, James Bowie in real life, the man from the Bowie knife, he actually was in a duel in Natchez, Mississippi.
Speaker C:On.
Speaker C:There's a sandbar there that he's a. Participates in a duel there because it's not quite in either state.
Speaker C:So they would do duels on the sandbar right side outside of Natchez.
Speaker C:And he gets shot twice and the other guy shoots him twice and then he pulls a knife and kills the person with a knife.
Speaker C:So it's one of the, it's where the Bowie knife kind of comes from and named for him.
Speaker C:And it's the first time a knife actually won in a gunfight.
Speaker C:And it's like, it's like Bowie's knife.
Speaker C:So it's kind of interesting that Charles has the bowie knife in a duel.
Speaker C:I kind of like.
Speaker C:That's kind of neat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:See, I wonder if that's just coincidence because it looks cool on camp or if that's a detail that John Jakes knew and said, well, let me just throw it in there for the hell of it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't either.
Speaker A:But that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that duel.
Speaker A:So now Billy saved.
Speaker B:Billy saved.
Speaker A:And he.
Speaker B:And they make it to the train and get married.
Speaker C:They make it to the train and this is when Ashton's whole plan is ruined.
Speaker C:This is when she comes back, right?
Speaker C:And she's like, oh, we didn't wait for them.
Speaker C:We were.
Speaker C:We just came back.
Speaker C:And this is when you get Patrick Swayze.
Speaker C:He's like, you're not my sister.
Speaker B:It's an Ori.
Speaker B:Ori basically pulls his sister into a room, right.
Speaker B:So they can have a private conversation.
Speaker C:Yeah, the riot act.
Speaker A:Ori confronts Ashton.
Speaker A:When she returns to Mont Royal, Ori is irate.
Speaker A:Ashton finds out through this argument that Forbes was killed.
Speaker A:Okay, yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And he just.
Speaker A:And yeah, he kicks her out of the family.
Speaker A:And the best part is when he kicks her out and he pushes her against the door.
Speaker A:And then she says something else.
Speaker A:Cause she.
Speaker A:She again shows her true colors here.
Speaker A:Because at first, when he finds out, you know, Forbes, you know, she's like, forbes never told me that.
Speaker A:Or something like that.
Speaker A:She's trying to lie, can't tell anything.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker A:Forbes, can't tell anybody anything.
Speaker A:Vols is dead.
Speaker A:Like, at first it looks like she's gonna cry, and her face.
Speaker A:And then she just turns this evil look on her face.
Speaker A:She's like, it's all your fault.
Speaker A:And she starts lashing out him.
Speaker A:Lashing out at him.
Speaker A:And he, like, grabs her and throws her into the door.
Speaker A:And she says something to him and he's just like, that's it.
Speaker A:And he goes.
Speaker A:And he grabs her again, opens the door, pushes her out in the hall.
Speaker A:And Huntoon standing out there with.
Speaker A:Who was the other person?
Speaker A:Was it a.
Speaker A:Was it a slave or was it.
Speaker A:There was another person out there?
Speaker A:I don't remember.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And Ori continues to yell at her, and he goes, you're out of this family.
Speaker A:You no longer remember this family.
Speaker A:And yada, yada, yada.
Speaker A:And she's like, well, my husband's gonna be high up in the Southern government and he's not gonna forget traitors.
Speaker A:And walks away.
Speaker A:And then Huntoon stands there and he looks at Ori's just like, yeah, the look on his.
Speaker B:I noticed that too.
Speaker B:The look on his face was, like, almost cartoonish.
Speaker B:He kind of looks at Ori and he kind of looks at Ashton, and he kind of does this cartoon, like, almost like, exit stage left.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think it's Charles is who's there.
Speaker C:And he makes this great line, which I love.
Speaker C:Bad apples taking over the barrel.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker A:Bad apples taking over the barrel.
Speaker A:That is a great line.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In both north and South.
Speaker A:Bad apples taking over the barrel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Except the bad apples in the north are right.
Speaker A:See, again, I keep going, like, I hate to say, because I.
Speaker A:They're right, but the.
Speaker A:The methods.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:The way they're going about.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it's, you know, the way that you have to have those extremes pulling the middle towards war in order for the question of slavery to be finally answered once and for all.
Speaker A:You have to destroy the south in order to answer that question.
Speaker A:So ultimately, John Brown, Virgilia, all that ilk were right, but they were wrong because they were vigilantes.
Speaker A:It needed to be done under the color of law.
Speaker A:Otherwise we're no better than.
Speaker A:Than some banana republic or some third world country.
Speaker A:And so, like, it had to go the way it went in order for them to be proven right.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then right after this whole kind of dramatic scene, it cuts to Lincoln.
Speaker B:All of a sudden, you're in President Lincoln's office with an actor, you know, kind of doing an okay job, looking like Lincoln, talking with Seward, who was his secretary of state.
Speaker B:Mm.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker A:You mentioned this before.
Speaker A:This scene before.
Speaker A:You alluded to it, and then we just skipped over it here.
Speaker C:Oh, the one.
Speaker C:The Sanctuary.
Speaker A:The Sanctuary, yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Justin comes to Mont Royal to get his wife back because he's training his militia.
Speaker A:Or maybe that's later.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's another episode.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:So he.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He comes to get Madeline back, but they're ready for him.
Speaker C:Yep, that's right.
Speaker C:So they're like.
Speaker C:They've.
Speaker C:They've armed everyone.
Speaker B:Yeah, Slaves and everything.
Speaker C:They've armed.
Speaker C:They're enslaved.
Speaker C:They've armed every.
Speaker A:Slaves.
Speaker A:Question mark.
Speaker A:Well, I. I'm.
Speaker A:I'm curious to know, like, if there were a situation in.
Speaker A:In slave holding south where you've got a Justin Lamont bringing his posse over.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Would you arm your slaves?
Speaker A:Because isn't that something Southerners are afraid of?
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And I. I saw that as well, and I.
Speaker B:That was one of those questions in my head.
Speaker B:And we didn't pause it, and kind of look it up in my, in my head of like, would that actually have happened?
Speaker B:Because I think that's a great, That's a great.
Speaker C:So I guess what they're trying to say is that Ori, his slaves aren't going to revolt against him.
Speaker A:That's what I'm saying is like.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Are they trying to say that, that the, the main family is good to their slaves and their slaves want to protect.
Speaker B:I mean, that's what they're implying.
Speaker C:That's what they're implying.
Speaker B:Implying that in that scene.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they're not going to turn their guns on him.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're gonna give him back.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess.
Speaker A:I mean, who knows, you know, I mean, that's the thing with, with life is there's, there's the rule and then there's the exception to the rule.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And that happens everywhere, so who knows?
Speaker A:But anyway, Justin, you know, Charles comes out, he's got a shotgun pointing at him.
Speaker A:He's like, I wouldn't get off the horse.
Speaker C:He's rawhide.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's great.
Speaker A:And, and he's like, you know, he goes, ori wants to talk to you, you know, so you, you can come in.
Speaker A:He puts out his hand so that he gives him his pistol, takes the pistol and he just stands there, you know, intimidating the other guys.
Speaker A:Justin goes in to Ori, so I want my wife back.
Speaker A:And he's like, she's not coming back to you.
Speaker A:I've given her sanctuary here.
Speaker A:He's like, sanctuary and the whole thing.
Speaker A:And he goes, you know, you'll.
Speaker A:You can only have her back if you ever kill me.
Speaker A:And if you ever suffer with my property again, I'm going to assume that's what you're coming to do, and I'll kill you first.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he backs off and he leaves.
Speaker A:And again, he's done with the man.
Speaker A:He's done, man.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's waited 20 years.
Speaker C:He just dealt with Ashton, he's done with her, he's done with Justin.
Speaker A:You can't take it anymore.
Speaker B:He's cleaning house, man.
Speaker A:Yeah, but he tells Madeline to get a divorce based on cruelty or whatever, physical cruelty, and so that they can then get married.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:Finally is like, yes.
Speaker A:And he's like, what the hell did he have you on?
Speaker A:And she's like, I don't know.
Speaker A:Atomic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And he's like, it's gonna get worse before it gets better.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:It's like, I think they drugged you.
Speaker A:He's like, you're gonna be in the beds.
Speaker C:I said, he ain't gonna want to be around for this.
Speaker C:This ain't gonna be for me.
Speaker A:She's not gonna be a beauty anymore.
Speaker A:All right, and then you said lane.
Speaker A:So now I'm sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, no, that's, that's, that's good.
Speaker A:I apologize to the audience, but I want you to understand the story I'm looking at.
Speaker B:Well, and, and this is, and this is good.
Speaker B:And, and I make sure we kind of hit those important scenes because that's a big scene there when Justin comes and confronts Ori and they finally, at least the friendly ties have been cut.
Speaker B:And then we cut to Lincoln talking about.
Speaker B:He's kind of reviewing his inaugural address.
Speaker B:And that's when they kind of give you that insight, at least as far as the audience goes.
Speaker B:Of like you were mentioning earlier when we had kind of talked about this was sure, he gave in to the Fugitive Slave act, right?
Speaker B:Is that the one?
Speaker B:But he wasn't happy about it.
Speaker B:And kind of part of how they wrapped that up was when Seward kind of says, well, you should kind of implies like, hey, maybe you should let slavery keep going into Texas or something like that.
Speaker B:And Lincoln's like, well, I think I've compromised enough.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The south should compromise.
Speaker B:And so that's kind of how they're showing you.
Speaker B:He's saying, no more.
Speaker B:No more than what I've already given them.
Speaker B:And it's a short scene, but they're kind of trying to give you the context, I think, of Lincoln's kind of approach to this.
Speaker C:And this is March.
Speaker A:Lincoln hasn't given them anything, cuz he's not even inaugurated yet.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker B:This is March hearing his speech.
Speaker A:So he's saying, we, the United States, we've given them enough and it's time that they start to compromise.
Speaker A:But that's what Shelby Foote says in the Ken Burns thing, is that we lost our gift for compromise and that's why we went to war, because the south didn't want to compromise anymore with reasonable people.
Speaker B:And then they show Billy and Brett.
Speaker B:They show them there it was at the White House.
Speaker C:So Lincoln comes down the steps with a hard looking Mary Todd.
Speaker C:She looks really not great.
Speaker A:They even try.
Speaker C:They even try.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so Brett and Billy get to see her.
Speaker C:But then you also cut to Ben and Morgan Fairchild.
Speaker B:Yeah, Ben.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And Scott didn't even.
Speaker C:He doesn't really know who Morgan Fairchild is.
Speaker C:But I remember that skit from SNL when he used to be like, Morgan.
Speaker C:My wife, Morgan Fairchild, who have I've seen naked.
Speaker C:Like, I remember him saying that.
Speaker C:An snl.
Speaker A:I remember that one.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which comedian was that?
Speaker C:It's John.
Speaker C:John Lithgow.
Speaker B:Jon Lovitz.
Speaker C:John Lovitz used to use that skit all the time on Weekend Update.
Speaker A:Remember that at all?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:That's the only reason why I even know who she is.
Speaker A:I only know who she is because she was in Pee Wee's Big Adventure, and she played Dottie in the movie of Pee Wee's big.
Speaker B:Oh, the movie.
Speaker B:So one of the things that I commented and I said, my notes say, oh, no, it's Bent.
Speaker B:And I said, why didn't he run back to the South?
Speaker B:But then a little bit later, they show him in bed with Morgan Fairchild.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They had just been fooling around.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker C:He has a plan.
Speaker B:I couldn't figure out what they were trying to imply that Bent has, like, some sort of magic over women where he can just get them to do whatever he wants.
Speaker B:Because he's straight up telling Morgan Fairchild's character, I'm only with you because your husband has money and you're funding some of the things that I want to do, and if you didn't have money, I wouldn't be with you.
Speaker B:And she's like, oh, you're terrible.
Speaker B:You're terrible.
Speaker B:But you know, he's telling the truth.
Speaker B:It's the craziest thing.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:She's just like, you're just.
Speaker A:You're silly.
Speaker A:Like, no, like, I really am telling you outright, I want your husband's money.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What is great about that scene, because he's basically telling her that he wants to become a blockade runner and he.
Speaker C:Wants to bring off the war.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he wants to profiteer off the war.
Speaker A:And he's not going to fight for the South.
Speaker A:He thinks Jefferson Davis is an idiot.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so he's not going to do that.
Speaker A:He's going to make himself rich off the war.
Speaker A:And I forget what they're.
Speaker A:I think they're talking about the Anaconda Plan, which I. I don't even know if that was a thing at that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm looking up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not sure, but it's.
Speaker A:But he.
Speaker A:He snaps at her and he says, you are talking to a military genius.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right, Adam.
Speaker A:He laughs in his face.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:She's just straight laughs.
Speaker B:Laughs at his face.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Prompted me to write Ben is a fucking idiot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Somehow he.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's kind of just like.
Speaker B:I wouldn't even call it Forrest Gumping his way through this thing, but somehow he's just like failing his way upwards continually through.
Speaker B:Through his military, I'll call it career quote unquote, and through this mini series.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C: actually was a Union Plan of: Speaker C:Like an anaconda.
Speaker C:Like a snake.
Speaker C:Like you're strangling the south and so you can't bring any supplies into the ports and basically you're strangling them.
Speaker A:When do they enact that?
Speaker A:Was it at this point in the story, like.
Speaker A: Or was it later in: Speaker C: It says: Speaker C:I don't know what.
Speaker C:What time.
Speaker B:It must have been later because we're not to Fort Sumter yet.
Speaker A:No, this is still.
Speaker C:Yeah, still early on.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But here, what he wants to do is.
Speaker A:Is run that blockade and bring in luxuries and sell them on the black market.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I might be, you know, I also might be confusing another conversation he has in episode seven or episode one of book two.
Speaker B:So they show us that scene, right?
Speaker B:So we know that Bent is not gone.
Speaker B:We know that he's gonna stick with the storyline.
Speaker B:And then my next note again is Fragilia.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:Every.
Speaker B:Every time her and Ashton keep popping up, my notes are like, damn it, Ashton.
Speaker B:Virgilia.
Speaker B:No, those are my notes.
Speaker C:We cut back to George.
Speaker C:George leaves.
Speaker C:He has some business to do.
Speaker C:His wife is pregnant, about to have the baby.
Speaker C:And so George gets.
Speaker C:He leaves.
Speaker C:She turns and you see this horrible waif of a person walking down the street, holding onto the bars with their hair all erect.
Speaker C:And you realize it's Virgilia.
Speaker B:She could barely stand out of a Charles Dickens.
Speaker A:Yes, right.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:And she's like, Virgilia.
Speaker C:And she's like taking her in.
Speaker C:It's like she's like a street walker at this.
Speaker C:This point.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:She's a homeless street walker.
Speaker C:So she takes her in and kind of, I guess, nurses her back to health.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, she does that and is.
Speaker A:As she brings her inside, she's encountered, or they're encountered by Stanley and Isabelle and Isabel.
Speaker A:Another.
Speaker A:Yes, Isabelle, She.
Speaker A:She basically is a, you know, against bringing Virgilia in the house.
Speaker A:And Constance defends the decision and defends her.
Speaker A:And Isabel calls her, you know, makes Fun of her Irish heritage or something like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:But then Constance says, you know, she's George's sister.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then the brother also says, she's my sister.
Speaker A:And then Stanley.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Isabelle's like.
Speaker A:And then Stanley goes, isabelle, she's my sister, too.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're responsible for her.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Stay.
Speaker A:But it's your responsibility.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You see him have a little bit of a spine in that moment.
Speaker B:Just because Constance is setting that example.
Speaker A:Of, you know, the dirty Irish slut.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:Is, you know, taking care of my sister better than I am right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So takes care of her.
Speaker B:Then we.
Speaker B:Then we see Ori talking about trying to get George basically his money because South Carolina has seceded.
Speaker B:South Carolina has basically started making factories saying, hey, you got to start making wartime materials.
Speaker C:And so what happens then, too, is they're going to start changing their currency.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so Orey wants to get the money up to George that he's earned, and it's like a half a million dollars.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He basically says, george didn't invest in something to.
Speaker B:That's going to, you know, create weapons that are going to be used against him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For Montgomery to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he's.
Speaker B:He's out there walk with Madeline.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So they're out there walking as a couple now, you know, on.
Speaker B:On his plantation.
Speaker B:And so he decides that he's going to mortgage Mont Royal.
Speaker B:And so he does.
Speaker B:For like half a million dollars, which, I mean, that's.
Speaker B:That's probably 30 to $50 million.
Speaker B:Now nowadays compared to the comparison, you're.
Speaker A:Mortgaging it before you're going into a war that, of course, he doesn't know this, but Is going to ruin.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Your value.
Speaker C:Everything.
Speaker A:Yep, everything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you're taking out this loan.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But at the same time, he does know that.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, that.
Speaker A:Like, he doesn't know exactly what's going to happen or how or when, but he knows that they're up against it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, he's not for it when he's on the train going up to see George with this money.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And they hear about sumter falling.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:And the Southern guys sitting across from him are jubilant over it.
Speaker A:And they could tell by the look at his face that he's not.
Speaker A:They go, are you a Northern sympathizer?
Speaker A:And he goes, my sympathies are with the south, sir, but it means it in a different way.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I'm sympathetic to the cause.
Speaker A:He goes, my sympathies are for what's coming.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Again, that points to the acting in this.
Speaker B:That the way like, just like you said, the way he said it, the delivery communicates what he's actually meaning.
Speaker B:And you see that as the audience and the other gentleman kind of give him this weird look.
Speaker B:What the hell's that supposed to mean?
Speaker A:Yeah, a lot of people don't realize Patrick Swayze was only 16 when he did this role.
Speaker A:I mean the amount of maturity in his acting, it's.
Speaker B:It's pretty.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Or I was, I was super impressed by him.
Speaker C:I am impressed by him too.
Speaker C:See, he's giving you this.
Speaker C:I think the more of the moderate who's like of civil war.
Speaker C:We all lose.
Speaker C:Yeah, we're all gonna lose here.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they even, they even talk about a little bit later towards the end of this episode about they.
Speaker B:They talk about that they fought in Mexico and that, that, you know, war is not.
Speaker B:War is not a good thing.
Speaker B:So he gets up there to Philadelphia.
Speaker B:He makes it up to, to see George.
Speaker C:He has to like disguise himself as a northern.
Speaker B:There's some people that say like hey, you might want to just keep your mouth shut because that southern accent is going to get you in trouble, you know, up here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they're from South Carolina too.
Speaker A:And they give him a little ribbon to show.
Speaker A:See, even back they had AIDS ribbons.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he comes up to.
Speaker B:To see George and shows up and pops open this little suitcase with half a million dollars in only looked like 30,000.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then my next note.
Speaker B:Fragilia.
Speaker B:Yeah, right again.
Speaker C:She's better.
Speaker C:She's better now.
Speaker B:She's better.
Speaker B:And this actual note actually says dammit for Jelia.
Speaker B:So this, I think Fort Sumter.
Speaker B:Now that's like just actually we see Fort Sumter happen April 12th.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that's just happened and tensions are high and she knows they're out sentence are high.
Speaker C:People are looking out there for Southern sympathizers.
Speaker C:So she rallies a lynch mob.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:She goes and rallies.
Speaker B:She get.
Speaker B:She gets one of the servants and she says, hey, don't ask me silly questions.
Speaker B:Just go to this pub or whatever.
Speaker B:Go to this, you know, whatever, wherever she tells her to go and tell, tell them what I told what I told you.
Speaker B:You know, say exactly what I told you.
Speaker C:Which you would think the servants would be like, don't do anything that crazy girl says.
Speaker C:Like she's nuts.
Speaker C:And we just took her in.
Speaker A:Yeah, my.
Speaker A:I was thinking the same thing.
Speaker A:I'd go have these.
Speaker A:Are these certain.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Virgilia and like shut the door and walk away.
Speaker B:They should have just gone.
Speaker B:The realistic version of this would have been the servants going back up to like either the head servant or like to George himself and be like, hey, your sister just told us to go down to the bar and out you.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And you know, Mr. Maine here.
Speaker B:But that's not what happened, so.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Can we go back to the fourth subject?
Speaker A:Because we.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:We passed that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now you have to remember these.
Speaker A:These episodes were made to Joe on a television screen.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And they didn't have these big 65 inch television screens we have now.
Speaker A:Maybe it was this big.
Speaker A:I don't know if you could see me entirely, but you know, 30 inches maybe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Were they even 30 inches?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:In the 80s.
Speaker B:80s, that'd probably be on the bigger side.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I had one of those wooden ones.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That are.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:It was a piece of furniture that it had two or three guys to.
Speaker A:To move in.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, wood.
Speaker A:It was stained.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Pain.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The screen was inside probably like this big, like a half maybe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker A:I, you know, I. I don't know when they stopped using tubes, but I think it was still tube.
Speaker A:No, I don't think it was tubes by that point.
Speaker A:But anyway, the point is it was not a big screen and the fidelity was not great.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A: ou got to remember, folks, in: Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Cable still had that.
Speaker A:So if you had cable, which we did and my grandparents did.
Speaker A:So if you had cable, it was maybe a little better, but the screen itself was limited.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I only say that because when you watch this Fort Sumter scene on a 65 inch high definition.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:You realize that they're using miniatures and they're using camera tricks to make the miniature look larger.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And they're using slowed down footage of small, tiny, little like firecracker type explosives.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I noticed that.
Speaker A:Fort Sumter.
Speaker A:And it's terrible.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is absolutely awful.
Speaker A:But again, it.
Speaker A:I was nostalgic.
Speaker A:It made me nostalgic for that time when I, you know, seven years old.
Speaker A:I didn't know.
Speaker A:I didn't know what.
Speaker A:What to me, I was like, oh, this is so cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, another thing was, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They show that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Start of the Civil War.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:That's the match that lit the flame that.
Speaker B:That started the forest fire.
Speaker B:Then my.
Speaker B:Damn it.
Speaker B:For Jillia.
Speaker B:Note Comes in because she comes in and like the crazy person she is, she can think of nothing in this world that she has to do other than target or remain who's in her household delivering half a million dollars to.
Speaker A:Her family that she's going to suck the teat of.
Speaker B:Oh my God, she's going to steal.
Speaker C:Half of this crap.
Speaker B:Like so, so like you said, the lynching mob shows up, they start throwing.
Speaker C:Rocks in the windows.
Speaker C:And at first George tells Ori, go out the back door.
Speaker C:But then George realizes we've got to make a stance.
Speaker C:We got to take a stance here.
Speaker A:Probably at the back door too.
Speaker C:They're probably at the back door too.
Speaker C:So they both grab rifles, they both go out, stand on the porch, they.
Speaker A:Both grab double barreled shotguns.
Speaker C:Oh, so shotgun.
Speaker C:Yes, double barreled shotgun.
Speaker C:And they both stand on the porch.
Speaker C:I liked shoulder to shoulder, basically.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And did you like the corny Hollywood line when they're loading up?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or back to back doing battle again or something?
Speaker A:Yeah, something like that.
Speaker A:It was like back battle.
Speaker A:I should have written it down.
Speaker C:I should have written it down too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they grabbed the shot, which by the way, I thought was cool.
Speaker A:George had hidden in the wall behind a panel closet.
Speaker A:Yeah, like imagine that.
Speaker A:Like you have it right in your foyer.
Speaker A:But I guess it's just for such a moment like this.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:You know, so they, they, they talk the mob down that, you know, they do the classic, hey, first person to move gets shot.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And he even calls him out, you know, George says, you know, this is an old army tradition.
Speaker B:Like the first person, the person that says charge has to charge first.
Speaker B:And he's pointing his gun right at, right at the guy who, who said that.
Speaker B:And so essentially everybody backs down and.
Speaker C:He'S like, and you know me and this is someone I've served with.
Speaker C:He also served our country.
Speaker C:We're here together.
Speaker B:We both fought for the United States.
Speaker C:I'm not going to let you kill this guy.
Speaker C:So here we go.
Speaker A:Well, I don't understand though, since Ori is clearly convicted.
Speaker A:Convicted, conflicted by the whole thing.
Speaker A:And he is a moderate and the, the actual line on the train is my deepest sympathy is for the south, sir, which is what you say to somebody when their relative has died.
Speaker A:In my deepest sympathies.
Speaker A:But anyway, I don't understand, while he's up there, his mission is just to give his best friend money and perhaps see him for the last time before this war starts.
Speaker A:Why not just say, no, no, no, I'm a Unionist, who the fuck cares?
Speaker A:It's not like he has Facebook and then people can go check his Facebook feed and say, oh look, you're very much pro south and pro secession.
Speaker A:It's like, no, I'm a unionist, like I fought for this country, God damn it, and this is my best friend.
Speaker A:It's like just to save your own life.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, that's a good point.
Speaker B:That's something that he could have done.
Speaker B:Now, Ori being the family honor kind of person, right, We've dealt with this.
Speaker C:Decorum and this honorable thing to do and.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, like he wouldn't even be with Madeline Right.
Speaker C:Until it was like physical lie to.
Speaker A:People who are about to kill you.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's okay to lie to them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I mean, they do talk the mob down, but then they start talking about, you know what they're asking each other's questions.
Speaker B:And I don't know if they're doing this when they're waiting at the train or if it's just after the mob leaves, but they kind of start saying, you know, hey, what are you going to do if they offer you a commission?
Speaker C:And then both realized.
Speaker C:They both have been approached.
Speaker B:Yeah, they've both been approached.
Speaker C:They both realized because they're, they went to West Point and both sides looking for West Point officers who have experience.
Speaker C:And Ori admits he's been asked by Jefferson Davis and George admits he's been called to Washington.
Speaker C:And so they both, and they both are going to do their duty.
Speaker C:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:And so they're realizing in this moment that we're going to do what we need to do.
Speaker C:And I think they're also realizing they're, they're going to be high ranking officers and they're going to be responsible leaders, but this might be the next time they see each other.
Speaker C:They're going to be on opposite sides.
Speaker A:I remember the last episode we did and I said, I, I put me and my best friend in these positions and I think, you know, what would I do if I found my best friend on the other side of, of the battlefield for me?
Speaker A:And I said I'd, I'd run across between the lines and be the first to shoot him.
Speaker A:And this is where I would have shot him.
Speaker C:Well, he takes the $10 out that they, he still has that old rat again.
Speaker C:He has that old ratty $10.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He said, hey, why don't, why don't each of us take a side of this and we'll get, we'll put these back Together once the war is over.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:And I, I, that's a good, I don't know if that's in the book or if that's something they did for the series.
Speaker B:It was, it was a good part though, storytelling wise.
Speaker A:That's like a nice touch to have in there, you know, like all the.
Speaker B:Way beginning before that we, they could, I think they had like just left, right.
Speaker B:They had left it to head off to the train.
Speaker B:So George was gonna kind of help Ori get to the train, this last train.
Speaker B:But then we see Virgilia getting ready, getting ready to roll out.
Speaker B:She's in there like stealing stuff from the house.
Speaker C:She's taking everything.
Speaker B:She's taking everything.
Speaker B:She's taking the nice green dress from, from France, you know, the pearl and all the stuff.
Speaker B:But Constance just continues to show her kindness and try to talk her back into the family, which she gave.
Speaker C:She gives her all the stuff, she sees that she stole all the stuff, she tells her it's hers and takes it.
Speaker A:Take it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, she even helps her.
Speaker A:Have you.
Speaker A:You know what Virgilia reminds me of in this part is, you know, God forbid anybody who has to deal with this.
Speaker A:I, I had a relative who was addicted to heroin and I don't know, I didn't live with him, he was my cousin, he died from it.
Speaker A:But like, I don't know if he ever did anything like this.
Speaker A:I never talked about this stuff with his family but, but it reminds me of the stories you hear about the drug addicted son or daughter who steals shit from the parents house.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When the parents have given them sanctuary in the house, they don't contribute to the household.
Speaker A:They're just bonked out of their mind all the time.
Speaker A:And then they need a fix and they steal money or something from their parents, some valuables at least they have the, I don't want to say excuse because it's still wrong, but for lack of a better word, excuse of they've got this addiction.
Speaker A:Virgilia is just an asshole.
Speaker C:Well, she says this comment, I have no tolerance for enemies that come as friends.
Speaker C:And she, like you said before, when you're so deep into your belief and you become it, you can justify everything you do.
Speaker B:And she even says to Constance, Constance says, well, how are you going to, you know, how are you going to get by, you know, out there?
Speaker B:And Fragilia looks her straight in the face with all this confidence, says I have means.
Speaker B:And then that's when she starts walking down the steps and she drops and everything spills out Showing that her means is everything.
Speaker B:She's stealing from the household.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The silverware.
Speaker B:And then she's again, Kirstie Alley kind of showing her acting chops in this kind of show.
Speaker B:She immediately is ashamed, shows this.
Speaker B:And then Constance just goes down, picks up all her stuff, puts it back in there and says, I believe these are yours.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then Virgilia takes it and Moses.
Speaker B:Moses her way out, you know, so.
Speaker A:There'S something interesting here that Virgilia also says.
Speaker A:And I've.
Speaker A:I've never been secretive about this on my show or anything, is like, I've always kind of battled depression.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And one of the things that.
Speaker A:The only thing I think that I really related to her on is when she says that she can't believe that she's ever been a part of the family because she looks at them all and she doesn't relate them at all.
Speaker A:And I've said that before, is.
Speaker A:I always joke, and my sister's name is Karen.
Speaker A:And I always say, well, it's Karen's family and it's not mine.
Speaker A:I just kind of went along for the ride.
Speaker A:And it's not because they rejected me.
Speaker A:It's not because they were mean to me.
Speaker A:They were great to me.
Speaker A:They just never could relate to me, and I couldn't relate to them.
Speaker A:We fundamentally didn't understand each other because I thought differently.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And not only did I think differently, but I. I had this depression thing, which they didn't understand when it really started to kick my ass in high school.
Speaker A:And I didn't understand.
Speaker A:I didn't have the words to express what I was feeling or thinking or whatever.
Speaker A:But it would come out.
Speaker A:It would show itself in ways that were often adversarial to my family and not like them.
Speaker A:And it's not like I. I wasn't.
Speaker A:I was a rebel, I guess, but in a very, very benign way.
Speaker A:In many ways, I did understand my family and see eye to eye with them on.
Speaker A:On the.
Speaker A:Like, a lot of the things that actually just matter about having a normal, everyday life.
Speaker A:But then it's like these other things where I don't really see with it.
Speaker A:And so when she said that, like, I'm like, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, if.
Speaker A:If you're representing the fan, it's the black sheep of the family is really what it is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If you're so.
Speaker A:And that can make you.
Speaker A:That alienates you.
Speaker A:And a weak mind will fall into the arms of an extremist group that is angry at society and so you.
Speaker A:You don't take it out on your family because you need your family still, but you take it out on everybody else's families in the rest of society.
Speaker A:And that's why I think, like, I don't care which side of the political spectrum an extremist falls on.
Speaker A:An extremist is the same brain, regardless of where they allied, ally themselves, or align themselves.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it's an anger.
Speaker A:And I. I'm telling you, I've known a lot of people my whole life who fall on one side or the other as an extremist.
Speaker A:And if you.
Speaker A:If you can befriend them and really let them open up about their life and.
Speaker A:And everything, you will find almost nine and a half times out of ten that they did not feel understood or seen or they even felt mistreated by their family.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it's the same mindset.
Speaker A:It's the same mind that.
Speaker A:That does that.
Speaker A:And so I thought that was interesting because, like.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker A:It's the same experience, but, like, I think some people have a stronger mind than others, and they don't go and join a cult.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, but some of these people do, and Virgilia is one of them, just like Jin is one of them.
Speaker B:And that's what I loved about Constance's character is she's showing that kind of polar opposite of, like, no matter what happens, you will always be family.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so she's really showing that.
Speaker B:And so again, I kind of appreciated that because you're doing that, right.
Speaker B:In a story you kind of show, sometimes you show a character the best when you show contrast.
Speaker B:And that's that stark contrast there.
Speaker B:It's like Constance says, no matter what, no matter how many times, you're always gonna be welcome back in this house.
Speaker B:You will always be family.
Speaker B:And then Fragilius just kind of raving about, you know, this has to happen and they've got to burn and bathe in blood and all this stuff and change.
Speaker B:And she's also.
Speaker B:But she's also showing emotion about her husband keep being killed.
Speaker B:About Grady, she brings him up.
Speaker B:And so kind of showing this.
Speaker B:This whole range, right?
Speaker B:And then all of this leads into the train station with Orion George basically saying, always be family.
Speaker B:You're always going to be family.
Speaker B:And they're.
Speaker B:They're kind of saying what they.
Speaker B:They think may be their final goodbye to each other at this train station.
Speaker B:And I thought it was kind of neat how they stopped the train.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We commented that on a couple episodes Ago they stopped the train just by kind of raising the flag or turning the light on or whatever it was.
Speaker B:And the soldier says, why did you guys stop this train?
Speaker B:He's like, well, I'm George Hazard of Hazard Iron, I built those cannons.
Speaker B:And this gentleman here is on a special mission.
Speaker B:So he lies to get Ori on the train so he can get out of town.
Speaker A:This is a very moving scene, but I have some questions.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Would a military train stop at a non scheduled stop because somebody raised the flag?
Speaker B:No, probably not.
Speaker B:Now during that time, you think about it, it's like the first day of the war.
Speaker C:If it's a passenger train that happens to be loaded with military weapons, maybe if it's a military train, different.
Speaker C:But if it's a passenger train that they happen to load military weapons on.
Speaker B:The one thing I will say that is semi believable about that, and you'll, I've seen this in the, in the military is when you're, when you're shifting modes, you tend to kind of like, kind of have your old habits from the previous mode.
Speaker B:You're going from peacetime to kind of wartime.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, you know what, we always stop.
Speaker B:We should stop.
Speaker B:Give it another year.
Speaker B:They won't stop.
Speaker A:Okay, okay, that's fair.
Speaker A:I, I and I agree it takes a while for us to wake up that things have changed.
Speaker A:Okay, that's my first question.
Speaker A:My second question is, you know, George is lying basically to get him home, this military guy.
Speaker A:To get a, an, an enemy.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Home, yeah.
Speaker A:So, and I don't know, would they, would they take.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:But like what you're saying is if it is a passenger train that has some military assets on it and being that it's very early and it's not, I mean it is war, I guess, but like, yeah, maybe they would let it go.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I, I, I, I, I could, I agree with that.
Speaker A:I could see that.
Speaker A:But then as he's about to get on the train, he takes that makeshift ribbon that the South Carolina lady gave Ori off of him and gives him the actual cocktail.
Speaker B:Might as well wear the real one.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:As well have the real one here as protection for her.
Speaker A:Ori.
Speaker A:And then big hug.
Speaker A:I think the music comes on the loudest it's ever been.
Speaker A:It drowns out everything.
Speaker A:The music.
Speaker A:They cranked it up to 11.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And I don't, it gives you, I mean a chill, I guess, if you're, you know, A little weaker, you might cry.
Speaker A:But I, you know, you get a little chill from that.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:And they see the train.
Speaker C:Is this a long pan and watching the train go.
Speaker B:And they, they, they stay on that shot for a long time when he.
Speaker A:Goes off into the darkness, into the woods and no, it's a beautiful ending.
Speaker A:It's really, you know, if you're going with the, the schlockiness and you can, you know, get rid of the, the, the way it makes you want to vomit it.
Speaker A:It's, it is a beautiful ending.
Speaker A:It is certainly melodrama and it's, you know, life at a poetic level.
Speaker A:But you can't tell me the two real people in that situation wouldn't feel that hug and wouldn't give that hug and wouldn't want to protect it for.
Speaker A:And wouldn't in their mind probably be playing some kind of swelling orchestral music.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:For me it's usually like in a gotta devita or something, but like it might be something pretty for somebody else.
Speaker C:And I think you would stand there for a while.
Speaker C:I think you would watch the train go because I think you would wonder when am I going to see them again?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Your entire relationship with that person would flash before your eyes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you want to remember that moment because it could end up being the other end, the sealed off end of the time capsule that is your time with that person.
Speaker A:And you're going into the train is going off into not only the darkness, but it's being swallowed up by the woods and he's going off into uncertainty.
Speaker A:We can't see where that train is going.
Speaker A:And so symbolically for George, my best friend, is going off and I'm staying here.
Speaker A:But both of us are heading into the darkness of uncertainty that war brings, that fog of war.
Speaker A:And it's sad.
Speaker A:It's a sad thing.
Speaker A:It's tragic.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And they're both war veterans, so it's not like they don't know what's about to happen here.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, it was a beautiful way to end what's, you know, they call book one, right.
Speaker B:Which is the kind of.
Speaker B:We call it season one, but they called it book one.
Speaker B:Says it's a beautiful way to end it.
Speaker B:Now for us here on Talk with History, we're not going to yet go into the actual civil war.
Speaker B:I'm probably going to keep watching it because like I said, as someone fresh to this series, I've really, really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:I've been surprised at how good it is, how accurate it is.
Speaker B:And how much that the character development and the color that they show across all the characters.
Speaker B:It's just been absolutely amazing.
Speaker C:I love the lead up.
Speaker C:The lead up to the war.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because most people don't do the lead up.
Speaker C:We go right into it.
Speaker A:Right view.
Speaker A:It's very short, very short.
Speaker C:And this is great.
Speaker C:This is great lead up for why this was such a brother versus brother war, why this tore America apart.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Why when people always question, when Lincoln, you know, gave serenity, what did he give, like forgiveness without malice.
Speaker C:Why did he do that?
Speaker C:Why did he do forgiveness without malice to the South?
Speaker C:Because you're going to see what's going to happen to our country here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, Matt, you.
Speaker B:You have watched.
Speaker B:It sounds like you've watched a couple.
Speaker B:Few of the next episodes after this.
Speaker B:So do you want to give the audience, if they've made it to part three of this series and to hour two of our conversation, do you want to give them some hints on what they could expect in.
Speaker B:In book two?
Speaker A:Well, I. I will tell you that.
Speaker A:You will.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:First of all, if you're a Civil War nerd, you got to suspend all of what you know.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:If you're Gettysburg guy or gal, you have to suspend what you know about the battle.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If you know the difference between California and the east, you have to just put that out of your head.
Speaker A:Be prepared for some new characters.
Speaker A:Be prepared for actors to change.
Speaker A:Billy Hazard, for example, is played by Parker Stevenson, who ends up becoming Kirstie Alley's husband.
Speaker C:Husband, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so that's one example there.
Speaker A:Also, Isabelle, there's a new actress who plays Isabel.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:And Patrick Swayze is replaced now.
Speaker A:Just kidding.
Speaker A:No, but okay, so Virgilia and Ori.
Speaker A:Oh, no, they bump uglies.
Speaker A:No, they don't.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:This is later in the war.
Speaker A:I'm not going to tell you where Virgilia goes and everything, but she is tempered and her hatred for Ori is tempered.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:And I found it to be very interesting when it happens because amidst the.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:She becomes a nurse.
Speaker A:And it's the horror of what she sees as a nurse.
Speaker A:Both sides.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because you're gonna fix both sides.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:When she sees Ori, it's a connection to the pre.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:War life.
Speaker A:That as bad as she might have thought everything was at that time.
Speaker A:My God, has it gotten worse?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so now it's not like they become best friends, but you can see a change in the way she treats him and a change in her in general.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:Virgilia as much as I can't stand her now, I don't mind her so much by the end of this.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:War will do that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Apparently.
Speaker C:But it's not Patrick Swayze.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:He's not in the second season.
Speaker A:No, he's not in the third.
Speaker C:Oh, so he's in the second.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah, he's in the second.
Speaker A:The third was done in the 90s, and it's.
Speaker A:I couldn't get 15 minutes into the first episode because five frames almost.
Speaker A:Not really, but like two minutes into the first episode, Ori is killed by Bent.
Speaker B:Yeah, Bent.
Speaker A:We're not gonna bother with three.
Speaker C:That's bs.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's reconstruction, which is probably interesting, but.
Speaker A:Or there's no Ori.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because you remember by this time Patrick Swayze.
Speaker B:Huge star.
Speaker A:Big star.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they couldn't get him, and so instead of replacing him, they just killed him.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You're going to like the.
Speaker A:The war part of book two, which is most of it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If you can suspend what.
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, I would say to anybody who's made it with us all the way through here who hasn't seen it, which I don't know why you would have watched this if you haven't seen it, but I'm glad that you did go and watch it.
Speaker A:And like Jen just said, the lead up to the war, you know, Scott and I were joking.
Speaker A:When are we getting into the goddamn war already?
Speaker A:But it really makes the war pay off.
Speaker A:That lead up is so important because you have to understand what the Civil War, any civil war, does to a country.
Speaker A:It rips families apart.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And, you know, that's what they really are focusing on there.
Speaker A:But they're also giving you pretty good history.
Speaker C:Yeah, they did.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, you get in the Mexican War in there, you know, you're getting a lot of stuff in there, but you're growing up with these guys as they go through all these things together.
Speaker A:And so I. I think.
Speaker A:I think, honestly, I. I can't wait until we get to the war because I feel like this is like a major case of blue balls here.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:I was like, all right, let me get through all this shit so that we could talk about the war effort.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:We really must do this sooner than later because it's gonna kill me.
Speaker B:We will, we will.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think, Scott, when you start watching the war episodes, you're gonna be like, okay, yeah, let's do these soon.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: talking about the book one of: Speaker B:This has been really fun.
Speaker B:It was very fun for me having seen this because I am not typically kind of a history movie TV series fan and I really, really enjoyed this.
Speaker B:And part of the fun was sitting here talking about it with, with Jen, with Matt.
Speaker B:Thank you again for joining us.
Speaker A:But you guys, really, honestly, I don't get asked to go on other people's shows a lot because, you know, I'm really hard to stand.
Speaker A:But I, I appreciate that you've done this and we've had fun together doing this.
Speaker B:It's been so fun.
Speaker A:It has been a lot of fun and I hope, I really hope that your audience enjoys it and I hope I wasn't too obnoxious by pulling you back to things that you missed because I.
Speaker A:No, I mean, to them, I know you guys don't mind it, but like, you know, to the audience, I really hope you, you do give north and South a watch and see what you can get out of it and take our advice on it and, you know, suspend disbelief.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So again, to our watchers and listeners, thank you guys for joining us.
Speaker B:If you have not watched north and south, go watch it.
Speaker B:If you have watched it, I recommend watching it again because it sounds like Jen and Matt enjoyed it the second time around, even though the last time they watch it was, you know, in their youth.
Speaker B:But not only just say that I'm.
Speaker A:Actually enjoying this, I enjoyed it more this time because.
Speaker A:Because I had to take notes and really pay attention.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then I.
Speaker A:That made me realize the good parts of it.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I, I could understand it.
Speaker C:I understood what was going on.
Speaker B:Actually understood what was going on, which is what we do here, here on Talk with History.
Speaker B:So again, thank you again to our audience and we will talk to you guys next time.
Speaker C:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker A:Bye, everybody.
Speaker B:This has been a Walk with History production.
Speaker B:Walk with History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Speaker B:Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
Speaker B:Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.
Speaker B:Talk with History is supported by our community@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal thanks go out to our Lifetime members to help keep us going.
Speaker B:Thank you to dougliberty, Larry Myers, Patrick Benny, Gale Cooper, Christy Coates, Calvin Gifford, Cenini Gene Noah, Larry Mitchell, Tommy Anderson, Susan Soulis, Bruce Lynch, Dino Garner, Mark Barrett, Don Kennedy and John Simpson.
Speaker B:Make sure you hit that follow button and that podcast player and we'll talk to you next.
