How to visit Robert E. Lee's Gravesite

Scott: 00:00:16

Welcome to Talk With History.

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I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Jenn: 00:00:20

Hello.

Scott: 00:00:21

On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired

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world travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history

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through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers, and

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the history lovers out there.

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Now, before we get into our main topic today, I do want to ask for

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folks to leave us some reviews.

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Those always help the show.

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It really does help the show grow.

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Today's episode takes us south to the beautiful town of Lexington,

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Virginia, in the historic campus of Washington and Lee University.

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But, this isn't your typical college campus tour.

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We're heading to a place steeped in controversy in Civil War

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history, the Lee Chapel, where Confederate General Robert E.

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Lee himself is buried.

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Lee, a complex and fascinating figure, remains a powerful symbol for many.

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Love him or loathe him, his story is undeniably woven into

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the fabric of American history.

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Join us as we explore the Lee Chapel.

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Delve into Lee's life and legacy and unpack the ongoing debate

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surrounding this confederate icon.

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All right, Jen.

Scott: 00:01:46

So this, this was one of those graves that we made the effort to get out to

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go see because I mean, you can't, in American history, the kind of giants

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of history, whether controversial or not, don't get too much bigger.

Jenn: 00:02:05

Yeah, when we talk about the Civil War, and it's still a huge subject

Jenn: 00:02:12

today, I even get people who don't like me to use the term Civil War.

Jenn: 00:02:16

They want to hear war between states.

Jenn: 00:02:19

And you'll find that depicted on a lot of things.

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It's even still on the Iwo Jima Memorial, says the war between the states.

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So when you're talking about the leaders of And that moment in history, it's always

Jenn: 00:02:34

Lincoln, Jefferson Davis, Grant, and Lee.

Scott: 00:02:39

And it's, it's one of those things that we try to do, and I will

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both of us on the back for this because we do our best to give context to the

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historical events of the historical figures that we're covering Either in

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a video or on a podcast, and that is a very tricky thing to do without appearing

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to lean one way or the other on a ton of topic, but context is so important.

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Now, this is a relatively simple event that you and I did.

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We went and visited the graveside of someone well known, but there's so much

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context surrounding him that There's been many books written about, Robert E.

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Lee.

Jenn: 00:03:20

Well, I think the issue that people have, and I'm just conjuring this, is if

Jenn: 00:03:25

you try to give any positive annotations about something that was so controversial

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and negative, that you're looking as if you condoned that person's entire history.

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actions and their resume, and that's not true.

Jenn: 00:03:38

If you look at a sculptor or a painting and you say that's a well

Jenn: 00:03:43

done painting or that's a well done sculptor even if it's of a controversial

Jenn: 00:03:48

figure, you're not saying that you agree with that figure and every

Jenn: 00:03:51

historic action that figure ever took.

Jenn: 00:03:54

And so that's where the issue.

Jenn: 00:03:56

lies is, as a historian, we have to, we have to point out the truth.

Jenn: 00:04:02

We have to point out the facts.

Jenn: 00:04:03

So if you're pointing to, in this instance, Robert E.

Jenn: 00:04:06

Lee's grave and the sculpture of him on top of it, and it is well done.

Jenn: 00:04:12

It's a great depiction of him.

Jenn: 00:04:14

It's very human like it does look like he's sleeping.

Jenn: 00:04:18

But if you point out that it's a well done sculpture, people will

Jenn: 00:04:22

jump on when you must like Robert E.

Jenn: 00:04:24

Lee.

Jenn: 00:04:24

And that's not true.

Jenn: 00:04:26

And it wouldn't, it wouldn't matter if it was true or not.

Jenn: 00:04:29

Historically, it doesn't matter if I like Robert E.

Jenn: 00:04:31

Lee.

Jenn: 00:04:32

What matters is I'm pointing out that the sculpture is well done.

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And that is a fact.

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And so to Those are the things that are hard for historians and we try,

Jenn: 00:04:41

we try to just give you all the facts and the context of what is happening,

Jenn: 00:04:46

when it's happening, who is making it, why it looks the way it does, and then

Jenn: 00:04:51

you can decide how you feel about it.

Jenn: 00:04:53

My feeling about it should have no bearing on how you feel about something.

Jenn: 00:04:57

My feelings about something As a historian should just be like, I want to make sure

Jenn: 00:05:02

you have all the information out there.

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That's primary sourced period.

Jenn: 00:05:08

It shouldn't matter what side those sources come from.

Jenn: 00:05:11

It's just you have it all at your disposal to make your decisions.

Jenn: 00:05:15

And so when we talk about controversial figures, Robert E.

Jenn: 00:05:20

Lee is one of them.

Jenn: 00:05:21

His Embeddedness in American history and American culture cannot be removed.

Jenn: 00:05:27

And so we are going to give him his due diligence and his due part and

Jenn: 00:05:32

talk about him and tell you the facts of the end of his life and the after

Jenn: 00:05:37

his his life after the civil war and we'll talk to a little bit of before

Jenn: 00:05:40

the Civil War because it has an impact on what he ends up after the Civil War.

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But we're gonna, we're gonna tell the truth about all of it.

Jenn: 00:05:47

And that's where we went and visited.

Scott: 00:05:54

Yeah.

Scott: 00:05:54

So this was part of our kind of larger trip last October, right?

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We had done some Western Virginia history, some Hatfields McCoys, which was very fun.

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If you're listening to this, we have a past episode podcast episode on the

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Hatfield McCoys locations that we visited.

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So I encourage you to go back and listen to that.

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But we were driving back home.

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to, to Norfolk and we went through Lexington to Washington Lee University.

Jenn: 00:06:19

you have to realize Lexington, Virginia is very Western Virginia.

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It's not anything we ever hit driving up and down to D.

Jenn: 00:06:27

C.

Jenn: 00:06:27

It's not like going to Richmond.

Jenn: 00:06:29

Richmond was easier to hit.

Jenn: 00:06:30

Lexington was one of those oh, that's pretty out there.

Jenn: 00:06:34

So the only way we really, visited, and we only visited this one time, was on our

Jenn: 00:06:39

way back from being in eastern Kentucky.

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Lexington, Virginia is a very historic town.

Jenn: 00:06:47

VMI is there, which was our first time visiting the VMI campus.

Jenn: 00:06:52

It was very cool.

Jenn: 00:06:53

We also visited the graves of Stonewall Jackson.

Jenn: 00:06:55

Stonewall Jackson's house is there.

Jenn: 00:06:58

And then, I would say they share a border, VMI and Washington and Lee University.

Jenn: 00:07:05

It's like they're right beside each other.

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So we couldn't, we, to visit Lee's grave, he's buried on the campus

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of Washington and Lee University.

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Washington, I didn't realize how long Washington and

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Lee University has been around now.

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Obviously it wasn't always Washington and Lee University.

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It started off as just Washington University.

Jenn: 00:07:25

It's a private, private liberal arts college in Lexington, Virginia.

Jenn: 00:07:28

It was established in 1749 as Augusta Academy.

Jenn: 00:07:32

It's one of the oldest institutions.

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institutions of higher learning in the United States.

Jenn: 00:07:38

They eventually were name it after George Washington and that's where it got its

Jenn: 00:07:44

name, Washington University and had that name for a very long time until Robert E.

Jenn: 00:07:52

Lee comes to be president of the school, and it's even after Lee's death that

Jenn: 00:07:57

they add the Lee to become Washington and Lee University, but it goes by

Jenn: 00:08:03

Augusta Academy until 1776, then it's Liberty Hall Academy to 1796, and then

Jenn: 00:08:12

it's In 1796 before Washington's death it becomes Washington Academy until

Jenn: 00:08:18

the war of 1812, then it's Washington College at, at, at 1813 until 1870 when

Jenn: 00:08:24

it becomes Washington and Lee University.

Scott: 00:08:27

it's, it's pretty wild to me because right.

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As someone like myself, I went to the Naval Academy, that's been

Scott: 00:08:32

around for quite some time, 1845, 1850, . The West Point has been

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around, a few years longer than that.

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This is like a hundred years.

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Before both of those were founded so it was it was pretty incredible

Scott: 00:08:45

to go beautiful campus But we went there with kind of one goal in mind

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and that was to go visit robert e lee's I guess really his crypt.

Scott: 00:08:53

Is that what you would call it?

Jenn: 00:08:59

Yeah, definitely his family crypt.

Jenn: 00:09:01

So in the fall of 1865, the financially ruined former general

Jenn: 00:09:07

of the Confederacy, Robert E.

Jenn: 00:09:08

Lee, was offered several business opportunities, but instead

Jenn: 00:09:11

he chose to accept to become Washington College's president.

Jenn: 00:09:15

And he stated that he chose that to become the college's president

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because he had a desire to train young men to do their duty.

Jenn: 00:09:24

And during his tenure, he established the first journalism course.

Jenn: 00:09:28

He added engineering courses, a business school, a law school.

Jenn: 00:09:31

I think we remember his office was in the downstairs of the chapel.

Jenn: 00:09:36

He met with every student at the time who were male to be good gentlemen,

Scott: 00:09:42

He said they had no strict rules, but that was really the one guideline

Scott: 00:09:46

Now one of the things that you also brought up during the video Was part

Scott: 00:09:50

of the reason he accepted this position was he couldn't go back to arlington

Jenn: 00:10:00

Yes, so let's, we talked about that in another video and I think

Jenn: 00:10:04

it's important that people understand this Arlington National Cemetery.

Jenn: 00:10:09

is originally Robert E.

Jenn: 00:10:12

Lee's home.

Jenn: 00:10:13

His plantation Arlington house was his house where he lived with

Jenn: 00:10:19

his wife, Mary Ann Custis Lee.

Jenn: 00:10:23

And if you hear the name Custis, it's because she is a descendant of

Jenn: 00:10:29

George Washington Custis who is a, a descendant of George Washington's

Jenn: 00:10:36

adopted children from his wife, Martha Custis, her first husband's Custis.

Jenn: 00:10:43

They had two children together when George marries her.

Jenn: 00:10:46

And I want it understood he married her and he owns everything

Jenn: 00:10:51

the Custis family owned.

Jenn: 00:10:54

The Custis don't hold on to any property after they are

Jenn: 00:10:58

married to George Washington.

Jenn: 00:11:00

It doesn't work that way in colonial

Scott: 00:11:02

It goes to the husband

Jenn: 00:11:03

goes to the man.

Jenn: 00:11:05

It doesn't stay in some kind of trust fund for the Custis family.

Jenn: 00:11:09

Now what George Washington did is he recognized the land

Jenn: 00:11:13

that came with the children.

Jenn: 00:11:14

He knows what land was their father's land.

Jenn: 00:11:17

So he makes sure that their inheritance includes their father's land.

Scott: 00:11:23

I think he, he is, I mean, it probably just happened via

Scott: 00:11:26

the marriage, but I think he was.

Scott: 00:11:28

intentional about, some sort of formalization of his

Scott: 00:11:31

adoption Of of the children

Jenn: 00:11:34

Well, the thing is so people ask that sometimes at Mount

Jenn: 00:11:37

Vernon, did he adopt the children?

Jenn: 00:11:39

And the truth is he doesn't have to formally adopt the

Jenn: 00:11:43

children like we do today.

Jenn: 00:11:44

That doesn't happen.

Scott: 00:11:46

It was just it was just part of it was part of the whole package Right.

Scott: 00:11:49

It's part of the

Jenn: 00:11:50

When you marry, you're adopting the children.

Jenn: 00:11:53

Now what he did do is he recognizes them as his lineage, as his descendants.

Scott: 00:12:00

What I was inferring earlier was he was intentional later about saying, again,

Scott: 00:12:05

recognizing that they are his children.

Scott: 00:12:09

And so people will they've argued, right, we've made some reels, Instagram

Scott: 00:12:12

reels that got, pretty big because people weren't aware of this lineage.

Scott: 00:12:15

And so when you say, Hey, Robert E.

Scott: 00:12:18

Lee lived in Arlington, everybody thinks wait, I thought that

Scott: 00:12:21

was George Washington's land.

Scott: 00:12:22

Well, it was, but that's because he married a descendant,

Jenn: 00:12:25

And so people get what, what happens is people use the

Jenn: 00:12:29

law of today and try to push it on colonial law and it wasn't the same.

Jenn: 00:12:34

So today you do have to formally adopt children today, children who come

Jenn: 00:12:41

from a different descendant and might have some, some inheritance from that.

Jenn: 00:12:48

keep that inheritance usually, even if they do have a stepfather

Jenn: 00:12:53

or stepmother, that inheritance can be protected under that shot.

Jenn: 00:12:56

That's not the same in colonial times.

Jenn: 00:12:58

So when Martha Washington marries George Washington, George Washington

Jenn: 00:13:02

owns everything that Martha Washington brings into the marriage, which was

Jenn: 00:13:06

everything that her first husband owned, which included the land

Jenn: 00:13:10

that is now Arlington National

Scott: 00:13:12

Yeah.

Scott: 00:13:12

And I just want to, because you mentioned that in the video, I

Scott: 00:13:15

think it's again, important context.

Scott: 00:13:17

That is part of the reason that Robert E.

Scott: 00:13:19

Lee And I think the reason he then accepts this position down at the

Scott: 00:13:22

University is because he can't go home to Arlington because Arlington has is

Scott: 00:13:26

now owned essentially by I think it was still the government like Secretary of

Scott: 00:13:29

War still had the deed or something like

Jenn: 00:13:31

So what happens is eventually George Washington's descendant,

Jenn: 00:13:35

his, his great, great His great grandson will build Arlington house.

Jenn: 00:13:40

They inherit the land.

Jenn: 00:13:41

It, it, it is original land of the Custis family.

Jenn: 00:13:44

George Washington makes sure it gets passed down to those children.

Jenn: 00:13:47

They still have it.

Jenn: 00:13:48

They haven't lost it in any kind of financial ruin.

Jenn: 00:13:51

I always emphasize that.

Jenn: 00:13:52

they didn't win the Revolutionary War, that's one of the first things that would

Jenn: 00:13:55

have been taken from them was their land.

Jenn: 00:13:58

If not their lives, their land definitely would have.

Jenn: 00:14:00

So because they won the Revolutionary War, because George Washington preserves

Jenn: 00:14:04

his place in history, because he's the president, that land is preserved.

Jenn: 00:14:07

So it is inherited by the Custis children.

Jenn: 00:14:11

Arlington House will eventually be built by George Washington Custis.

Jenn: 00:14:15

And he leaves it to his daughter.

Jenn: 00:14:18

And she Mary's Robert E.

Jenn: 00:14:21

Lee and they are married in that house and that house becomes Robert E.

Jenn: 00:14:25

Lee's house because again, he's the man.

Jenn: 00:14:28

So when he marries her, her stuff, because his stuff, this is 18 hundreds still.

Jenn: 00:14:34

So things are still owned by men even though I think at this point you

Jenn: 00:14:40

could make an argument for her owning this, but because it's Robert E.

Jenn: 00:14:43

Lee's land and because the Civil War breaks out,

Scott: 00:14:46

And to your point, he lost, so they took it from him.

Jenn: 00:14:49

yeah, well, they take it from him even before they, he lost, right?

Jenn: 00:14:51

So he leaves, she leaves after because the Union soldiers

Jenn: 00:14:56

come to commandeer the land.

Jenn: 00:14:57

It's right across the Potomac from Washington DC.

Jenn: 00:15:01

So they come and take the land.

Jenn: 00:15:03

Now, at first they just.

Jenn: 00:15:04

comedy of the house and the land.

Jenn: 00:15:05

But then it's General Postmaster Meggs, who, Meggs, who can't find

Jenn: 00:15:10

a place to bury more soldiers.

Jenn: 00:15:11

Alexandria National Cemetery gets filled up with soldiers and they go,

Jenn: 00:15:15

where can we bury more Civil War dead?

Jenn: 00:15:17

We need national cemeteries.

Jenn: 00:15:19

Where is some land available for national cemeteries?

Jenn: 00:15:22

Meggs, who went to school with Lee, mad at Lee things.

Scott: 00:15:25

said I'm gonna bury him here

Jenn: 00:15:26

Yeah, Lee's a traitor to me.

Jenn: 00:15:27

And I'm going to make sure Lee never gets to come home to his home.

Jenn: 00:15:30

I'm going to start burying them in Lee's garden.

Jenn: 00:15:33

So that's where the first soldier is William Christensen is the first

Jenn: 00:15:36

soldier he's buried in Lee's garden.

Scott: 00:15:38

it's funny because there's actually a picture I cut it in the video We've used

Scott: 00:15:42

it before of a bunch of soldiers right Civil War soldiers at Arlington house and

Scott: 00:15:47

the Arlington house kind of still looks the same Today, so again to your point,

Scott: 00:15:51

you know had Let's play the what if game.

Scott: 00:15:54

Had Lee not lost, he would have got most likely his land back.

Scott: 00:15:59

He would have got Arlington House back, but he did lose.

Scott: 00:16:01

So, so they, the government kept it and they, they used it for what it is.

Scott: 00:16:05

And so again, he had no home to go home to.

Jenn: 00:16:08

home to go

Scott: 00:16:09

And so when he was offered this position in Lexington, he takes

Jenn: 00:16:12

He takes it because not only does it become the president of Washington,

Jenn: 00:16:17

College, it comes with a house.

Jenn: 00:16:20

It comes with a house on campus where the president can live.

Jenn: 00:16:23

So this house at Washington and Lee University, the Lee house, is the

Jenn: 00:16:28

house that he will live in from the end of the Civil War to his death.

Jenn: 00:16:32

So it's the only other house he has after Arlington House, really,

Scott: 00:16:36

the Civil War.

Jenn: 00:16:37

the Civil War.

Jenn: 00:16:38

So he comes down.

Jenn: 00:16:40

He's there for about five years and in that time he decides

Jenn: 00:16:44

to build University Chapel.

Jenn: 00:16:47

So University Chapel was constructed between 1867 and

Jenn: 00:16:51

1868 at the request of Robert E.

Jenn: 00:16:52

Lee.

Jenn: 00:16:53

And.

Jenn: 00:16:54

It is his son, George Washington Custis Lee, with details from an

Jenn: 00:16:59

architect of engineering from VMI and who helps build the chapel.

Jenn: 00:17:04

So the chapel is actually built by Lee's son and it was known

Jenn: 00:17:09

as College Chapel at the time.

Jenn: 00:17:12

And the centerpiece of the chapel now, even though it's like it plays a part

Jenn: 00:17:17

of a Christian church, I think they said that it's never really was a,

Scott: 00:17:21

Yeah, you said in the video, it was always a chapel, but it

Scott: 00:17:24

was never like an official church.

Scott: 00:17:25

So there was no congregation that regularly came there.

Scott: 00:17:29

So I assume if it's a chapel, it's held for occasional services

Scott: 00:17:32

for those who want to use it on

Jenn: 00:17:34

exactly.

Jenn: 00:17:34

And there's two big portraits in there, one of George Washington and one Robert E.

Jenn: 00:17:39

Lee.

Jenn: 00:17:39

So, and the George Washington one is done by Gilbert Stewart, which, is the

Jenn: 00:17:44

famous painter of George Washington.

Jenn: 00:17:48

And then the other one of Lee was from 1866.

Jenn: 00:17:52

It's by Jay Reed.

Jenn: 00:17:53

And now it says in 2018, they replaced the portrait of George Washington.

Jenn: 00:17:57

by Charles Wilson Peale from the Washington Family Collections, which I

Jenn: 00:18:01

think maybe the Gilbert Washington one they wanted back in the National Archives.

Jenn: 00:18:08

So, so it was replaced, but it's still two of these huge paintings

Jenn: 00:18:13

of the two namesakes of the college.

Jenn: 00:18:16

And that's, that's what's in

Scott: 00:18:23

Now it was interesting just behind the scenes.

Scott: 00:18:25

So we're out there visiting Beautiful, it's fall right?

Scott: 00:18:28

It was just absolutely gorgeous We just beat in kind of like what looked

Scott: 00:18:31

like a large group of either students or high schoolers or something like

Scott: 00:18:34

that kind of touring the campus but we beat him into the to the chapel, but

Scott: 00:18:39

they actually, and I can understand why they asked us to leave a fair

Scott: 00:18:44

amount of our stuff, at the front.

Scott: 00:18:46

So, hey, I have, I always carry a pocket knife on me, right?

Scott: 00:18:48

It's just I just leave it in my pocket.

Scott: 00:18:50

I forget it's there.

Scott: 00:18:51

And they asked Hey, can you leave that up front?

Scott: 00:18:53

We'll watch it for you.

Scott: 00:18:54

You can come back and get it because, and maybe this has happened in the past.

Scott: 00:18:59

I'm just assuming, but they don't want people going in there.

Scott: 00:19:02

Again, when you're going into the crypt, and we'll talk about the gallery

Scott: 00:19:06

that's downstairs in his office when you're going into an area of such a

Scott: 00:19:10

controversial figure, they probably want to beware of someone who might want to

Scott: 00:19:14

do harm to these historical artifacts.

Jenn: 00:19:17

Like I said, whether or not your feelings are about these things, they

Jenn: 00:19:22

are still For everyone to see and they are still for everyone to learn from So

Jenn: 00:19:30

if you're feeling they get your part to take something away from that It really

Jenn: 00:19:37

is not fair to everybody else who could be learning something from this and

Jenn: 00:19:43

being able to see something from this.

Jenn: 00:19:45

And that, as a museum professional, we always talk about your role in

Jenn: 00:19:50

preserving the past is your job is to preserve it for future generations.

Jenn: 00:19:55

Your job is to, it's not to make judgments on it.

Jenn: 00:19:58

Your job is just to keep it.

Jenn: 00:20:00

and the best condition you can for future generations.

Jenn: 00:20:04

That's your job.

Jenn: 00:20:05

You're a custodian of it.

Jenn: 00:20:08

And so whether or not what somebody wants to see when they see it or how they

Jenn: 00:20:13

feel when they see it is not up to you.

Jenn: 00:20:15

It's the fact that they can see it.

Jenn: 00:20:18

See it and they can, it's there for them to learn from.

Jenn: 00:20:22

So what is behind, after you walk in the chapel and what is

Jenn: 00:20:26

behind basically the, the wall,

Scott: 00:20:29

stage.

Scott: 00:20:30

Kind

Jenn: 00:20:30

the stage is this huge statue called, it's called the

Jenn: 00:20:33

recumbent statue of Robert E.

Jenn: 00:20:35

Lee asleep on the battlefield.

Jenn: 00:20:38

And it's a, it's basically a white statue of Lee looking like he's

Jenn: 00:20:42

asleep on a bed in his uniform, his uniform from the civil war.

Jenn: 00:20:47

It was by Edward Valentine, who Valentine did a lot of these controversial

Scott: 00:20:56

I mean, he must have been relatively well known at the time because

Scott: 00:20:59

his name's kind of attached, right?

Scott: 00:21:01

He, like you said, he's done a fair amount of statues of in that era.

Scott: 00:21:04

So he must have been relatively well known.

Scott: 00:21:06

I mean, he's good at what he does.

Scott: 00:21:08

I mean,

Jenn: 00:21:08

I mean, it looks very lifelike.

Jenn: 00:21:10

If you want to see what Robert Lee probably looked like in full figure,

Jenn: 00:21:15

that's it looks like a sleeping person.

Jenn: 00:21:19

And, but Valentine did Stonewall Jackson statue, he did busts of Jefferson

Jenn: 00:21:24

Davis, he did other Lee statues that were removed have since been removed,

Jenn: 00:21:30

like ones that were in Richmond, ones that were in the Capitol building and

Jenn: 00:21:33

so he made a lot of these busts and statues of these controversial figures.

Jenn: 00:21:39

And people often mistake it as like a sarcophagus because

Jenn: 00:21:42

it looks like a sarcophagus.

Scott: 00:21:44

It does.

Scott: 00:21:45

Cause it's on this kind of brick rectangular

Jenn: 00:21:48

Yeah, and it's in a room that you can you'll see in our video, like

Jenn: 00:21:51

you can walk around it, you can walk 360 completely around it, there's

Jenn: 00:21:55

stuff on the walls, I think quotes from Lee and different kinds of things.

Jenn: 00:22:00

And so it's very much like you can walk around this statue and

Jenn: 00:22:04

it looks like the size of a body.

Jenn: 00:22:06

So it looks like a coffin.

Scott: 00:22:07

life size.

Jenn: 00:22:08

fit right underneath it.

Jenn: 00:22:09

But it's not a sarcophagus.

Jenn: 00:22:11

He's not buried inside of it.

Jenn: 00:22:12

He's buried in the crypt below.

Jenn: 00:22:14

So it really is just a statue of Robert E Lee asleep on the battlefield.

Jenn: 00:22:21

That's all on the first floor.

Scott: 00:22:22

Yeah.

Scott: 00:22:23

And then you actually go down into where the, the crypt, the kind of the family.

Scott: 00:22:28

Crypt, I'll call it actually is

Jenn: 00:22:31

Yeah, and that statue was dedicated in 1883.

Jenn: 00:22:34

So that's about 13 years after Lee has been dead.

Jenn: 00:22:39

And like he's buried in the crypt under stairs under the stairs.

Jenn: 00:22:42

So like you said, so if you go under the stairs, there's a crypt down there with

Jenn: 00:22:48

basically all the Lee family is down

Scott: 00:22:51

it's a whole plot.

Scott: 00:22:52

I mean his his wife I mean that you and we show some kind of good still

Scott: 00:22:55

pictures if you want to go take a look

Jenn: 00:22:57

You're not allowed to take video down there.

Jenn: 00:22:58

So we took still pictures of it.

Jenn: 00:23:01

And so that I would say it's the bottom floor.

Jenn: 00:23:04

But when you walk up to the chapel from the side, that's like

Scott: 00:23:10

You're yeah, you're walking out on the ground floor and then it goes

Scott: 00:23:12

down So I guess you technically you're walking in on the second floor and then

Scott: 00:23:14

you go down to the first but it's it's built on Kind of a hillside and so that's

Scott: 00:23:18

where you walk down into the crypt area There's the crypt area and then there's

Scott: 00:23:22

also like a gallery and even the full gallery wasn't even open You We got to

Scott: 00:23:26

see part of it, but the full thing was

Jenn: 00:23:28

So I think it's going through some kind of transition.

Jenn: 00:23:31

As you can imagine, the gallery, I think at one point, there probably

Jenn: 00:23:35

was a lot more southern leaning.

Jenn: 00:23:38

And I think now they're going to try to tell a more well rounded story.

Jenn: 00:23:43

And so I think that's what is being done down there.

Jenn: 00:23:45

But the things that haven't changed is Lee's office was down there.

Jenn: 00:23:49

And so they have a recreation of what his office would have looked

Jenn: 00:23:52

like with the original furniture.

Scott: 00:23:55

Yeah, I thought that was really

Jenn: 00:23:56

And they have recreations of the artifacts of letters

Jenn: 00:24:01

and things on his desk.

Jenn: 00:24:02

So what it would have looked like, which was dark, but

Jenn: 00:24:04

what it would look like today.

Jenn: 00:24:06

with Lee working in there.

Jenn: 00:24:07

And then, so in the crypt is General Lee is very like right in the middle.

Jenn: 00:24:14

Robert E.

Jenn: 00:24:14

Lee is right in the middle.

Jenn: 00:24:15

And then his wife, Mariana Custis Lee.

Jenn: 00:24:18

And then there's seven children, George Washington Custis Lee,

Jenn: 00:24:21

Mary Custis Lee, William Henry Lee, Ann Carter Lee, Robert E.

Jenn: 00:24:25

Lee Jr., Eleanor Agnes Lee, and Mildred Lee are there.

Jenn: 00:24:30

His parents are there.

Jenn: 00:24:32

Revolutionary War Major General Henry Lighthorse.

Jenn: 00:24:36

Lee and then his favorite horse, Traveler, is buried

Jenn: 00:24:46

right outside the chapel.

Jenn: 00:24:48

And so there's a door there, like a glass door, and right outside

Jenn: 00:24:52

is the grave site for Traveler.

Jenn: 00:24:55

And Traveler is the famous horse of Robert E.

Jenn: 00:24:58

Lee.

Jenn: 00:24:59

And so visitors will leave coins and apples and things.

Jenn: 00:25:02

Traveler outlives Lee, but not by much.

Jenn: 00:25:05

He steps on a nail, the horse, and gets septus and dies, I

Jenn: 00:25:11

think a year after Lee died.

Scott: 00:25:13

honestly, it was interesting reading up on, on this relatively famous

Scott: 00:25:18

historic horse, because apparently the horse was incredibly spirited,

Scott: 00:25:24

not, wouldn't let anybody ride it.

Scott: 00:25:26

But when Lee saw it, it's okay, that's going to be my, That's going to be my

Scott: 00:25:30

horse and was, was quite fond of it.

Scott: 00:25:33

I even read when I was making the video that, he had these whistles

Scott: 00:25:37

that he would train traveler on.

Scott: 00:25:39

And, and so it was, it was just interesting reading about this this, this

Scott: 00:25:43

horse of someone as famous as Robert E.

Scott: 00:25:46

Lee.

Jenn: 00:25:47

Well, it's interesting too, is a traveler.

Jenn: 00:25:50

He's looks like he's about 14 years old, and that's decently old for a horse.

Jenn: 00:25:55

But most of the time people don't bury horses.

Jenn: 00:25:58

That's a rare thing.

Jenn: 00:26:00

And if a horse dies, even famous horses, You usually don't bury the entire horse.

Jenn: 00:26:08

Usually you might bury the head.

Jenn: 00:26:09

I hate to sound graphic here.

Jenn: 00:26:11

And the rest of the horse is used for other purposes because it's a huge animal.

Jenn: 00:26:19

So for traveler to be buried is a big deal.

Jenn: 00:26:23

And like I said, it's very rare.

Jenn: 00:26:24

You hear of some horses being buried in their entirety.

Jenn: 00:26:27

Secretariat would be one of them, but it's just still rare for entire horse

Scott: 00:26:31

It's rare, but to be honest, I'm not.

Scott: 00:26:34

Too surprised that that happened at the time, because at the time Robert E.

Scott: 00:26:39

Lee was so well known and so famous and revered in that part of the

Scott: 00:26:46

country that kind of, he had that halo effect of everything else around him.

Scott: 00:26:51

And that, part of his mystique, part of, the, the, the story

Scott: 00:26:56

of him was his horse, right?

Scott: 00:26:59

His horse was also famous.

Scott: 00:27:01

And so, again, super rare but I'm not, I'm not too surprised

Scott: 00:27:05

this happened down there.

Jenn: 00:27:06

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:27:07

And I, we will say before we even went, we had people tell us, Oh, they removed that.

Jenn: 00:27:12

They removed Lee's horse.

Jenn: 00:27:13

They removed it.

Jenn: 00:27:14

And we were like, Oh, well, we better get over there

Scott: 00:27:16

They said they removed the marker, but we got over

Scott: 00:27:18

there and there was like two

Jenn: 00:27:19

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:27:20

So nothing was removed.

Jenn: 00:27:21

Everything was the same.

Jenn: 00:27:23

So just so you know, it's there.

Jenn: 00:27:24

If you want to see our video, it's there.

Jenn: 00:27:26

The university chapel was officially renamed from Lee chapel on June 4th, 2021

Jenn: 00:27:32

by the university's board of trustees.

Jenn: 00:27:34

So it was.

Jenn: 00:27:36

Lee Chapel for a long time and then they renamed it in 2021 to University

Jenn: 00:27:41

Chapel and that's what you'll hear today.

Jenn: 00:27:44

And again, you can go in and visit, it's, it's free to tour it.

Jenn: 00:27:49

You can go behind to see the statue, go downstairs, see the crypt go see

Jenn: 00:27:53

his office and then the gallery.

Jenn: 00:27:55

Hopefully the gallery will be more up to date.

Jenn: 00:27:59

So you can visit, but that is, it's a place there for you.

Jenn: 00:28:02

It's right beside VMI.

Jenn: 00:28:04

So if you want it to look at VMI as well, it's very Gothic

Jenn: 00:28:07

like buildings over there at

Scott: 00:28:08

Yeah.

Scott: 00:28:08

Beautiful

Jenn: 00:28:09

but beautiful big campus.

Jenn: 00:28:11

But the other place we went is we walked up the hill to Lee house.

Scott: 00:28:19

Yeah.

Scott: 00:28:19

It might be less than a hundred yards from the chapel.

Jenn: 00:28:23

it's not very far.

Jenn: 00:28:24

And this is the house where Robert E.

Jenn: 00:28:26

Lee lived as he was president.

Jenn: 00:28:30

This is where his wife will live.

Jenn: 00:28:31

The family will live while he's president until his death.

Scott: 00:28:35

that's where the presidents of the university today still live.

Jenn: 00:28:39

And so it's, it's a active house.

Jenn: 00:28:42

So we couldn't go inside of it.

Jenn: 00:28:43

And we tried to be respectful and not really film too

Scott: 00:28:47

Yeah, like we didn't walk up to the porch and stand on the porch

Scott: 00:28:50

and film right there on the porch.

Scott: 00:28:52

We stayed off to the side because there is, there is a sign out front

Scott: 00:28:56

that says private residence, no entry allowed or something like that.

Scott: 00:29:00

So, it was cool, but that's where Robert E.

Scott: 00:29:02

Lee lived from 1865 to 1870 , until his death.

Jenn: 00:29:06

It's neat to know that this was like Lee's house and to be able to see it.

Jenn: 00:29:11

And so it is within viewing distance of the chapel.

Jenn: 00:29:15

So when you think about after the civil war and Lexington and the

Jenn: 00:29:19

five years that Lee had after losing that great war this is his life.

Jenn: 00:29:26

was basically this campus.

Jenn: 00:29:28

I don't think he went far from here.

Jenn: 00:29:31

It was like my house to work in my office, back to my house.

Jenn: 00:29:36

And this was basically the last five years of his life.

Jenn: 00:29:39

His days were filled here.

Jenn: 00:29:41

So it was neat to see what happened to this man after.

Jenn: 00:29:47

such a tremendous loss to his career and to his life and to basically his

Jenn: 00:29:52

whole livelihood and basically his ancestry because they lost everything.

Jenn: 00:29:58

And so to be there and to see what happened there at the end

Jenn: 00:30:01

was a neat ending to American history and to see what happened.

Jenn: 00:30:07

in those later years after Reconstruction and the Civil War.

Jenn: 00:30:11

So it was cool to be there.

Scott: 00:30:12

Yeah, again, it's it's one of those things that you know, obviously

Scott: 00:30:17

Everybody's happy about the way things the way things turned out, but

Scott: 00:30:21

we're still visiting these locations.

Scott: 00:30:23

It's just different actually being there in the space Where these giants

Scott: 00:30:29

of history spent their last days like we are walking the same path in the

Scott: 00:30:34

same location that these You These huge historical figures did as well.

Scott: 00:30:40

It was pretty cool

Jenn: 00:30:46

Well folks

Scott: 00:30:47

that wraps up our visit to what used to be called Lee

Scott: 00:30:50

Chapel, now University Chapel, and our exploration of Robert E.

Scott: 00:30:55

Lee's legacy.

Scott: 00:30:57

Lee's story is a complicated one filled with heroism, controversy,

Scott: 00:31:02

and a whole lot of history.

Scott: 00:31:05

Whether you see him as a brilliant strategist or a defender of a horrific

Scott: 00:31:08

institution, there's no denying his lasting impact on the American narrative.

Scott: 00:31:15

We hope this episode sparked some interesting conversations and maybe even

Scott: 00:31:18

challenged some preconceived notions.

Scott: 00:31:20

Remember, history is complicated, it needs context, it's full of shades of

Scott: 00:31:25

gray, and Lee's story is a prime example.

Scott: 00:31:34

Thank you for listening to the talk with history podcast and please reach out

Scott: 00:31:36

to us at our website talkwithhistory.

Scott: 00:31:38

com.

Scott: 00:31:38

But more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this

Scott: 00:31:41

podcast, please share it with them.

Scott: 00:31:42

Especially if you think today's topic would interest a friend, shoot them

Scott: 00:31:45

a text and tell them to look us up.

Scott: 00:31:47

We rely on you, our community to grow, and we appreciate you all every day.

Scott: 00:31:52

We'll talk to you next time.

Jenn: 00:31:53

Thank you.