The REAL History of a Civil War John Wayne Movie: The Horse Soldiers (with Addressing Gettysburg)

Scott: 00:00:00

Welcome to Talk with History. I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian Jen.

Matt: 00:00:04

Hello.

Scott: 00:00:05

This is part of a series we call Watch with History.

The Watch With History series will focus on your favorite historical films where Jen and I will review the Hollywood historic classics we all know and love, while also discussing the history behind these films along with some interesting facts. Now today we are joined with a very special guest and fellow history podcast host, Matt Callery.

Matt is the host of the Addressing Gettysburg podcast, which our audience has probably heard of, and if you haven't, go give it a listen.

In: 2019

We get a lot of those and I enjoy seeing that on Patreon.

Matt: 00:00:56

Thanks.

Scott: 00:00:57

Matt's show has become a comprehensive resource for exploring the military tactics, human interest stories, and lasting legacy of this defining American event that happened in the beautiful countryside of Pennsylvania. Welcome, Matt, to talk with Cesare.

Matt: 00:01:17

Thank you very much. That was very nice.

Scott: 00:01:23

I try, I try to be over the top and overly gracious when I'm introducing our guests and then, yeah, you know, we'll, we'll just, we'll change that. I'll change it in the edit if this conversation proves otherwise.

Matt: 00:01:35

I was like, I wrote it for you.

Scott: 00:01:39

All right, now Matt is here to talk a bit of Civil War history with us, but through the lens of Hollywood and framed by the larger than life actor John Wayne. Tonight, we're diving into a Civil War epic that's pure John Ford, pure John Wayne and pure Hollywood gold.

Horse Soldiers, the gripping: 1959

Wayne stars as Colonel John Marlow, a hard nosed Union commander tasked with leading a cavalry unit on a dangerous mission into the heart of Confederate Mississippi. Their objective, to hit critical railway hub of Newton station and destroy the Confederate supply line.

It's a mission of sabotage and speed, and failure is not an option. But the perils of the battlefield are nothing compared to the drama inside his own ranks.

Marlow's practical military first approach instantly puts him at odds with Major Henry Kendall, the unit surgeon played by William Holden. Kendall is constantly reminding Marlo that he's a doctor first and a soldier second, creating a moral and professional battle within The Union lines.

That's almost intense as the one they're fighting with the rebels.

And then there's Ms. Hannah Hunter, played by Constance Towers, the quintessential Southern belle, who through a stroke of bad luck for her, overhears the entire top secret plan. Now Marlo has to haul this witty, high maintenance Confederate spy on along as a prisoner.

Let's just say she's slightly less cooperative than a muddy Mississippi road.

And Marlow finds himself in the unenviable position of commanding a military unit while simultaneously managing the war's least enthusiastic travel companion.

The Horse Soldiers is a tense, character driven adventure that perfectly balances action ethics and of course, a little bit of forced and unexpected Roman. Okay, Matt, so talk to us about why this, I believe, is one of your. Your favorites of John Wayne.

We got the comment from you after we put out True Grit a while ago.

Matt: 00:03:54

Yeah.

Scott: 00:03:55

And you said, oh, we have to talk about the Horse Soldier, so. So talk to me about why you love this movie.

Matt: 00:04:01

Well, first of all, I didn't properly thank you for having me on before when you introduced me, so. Thank you for having me on. I do enjoy your show whenever I get a chance to catch it. And I don't really get a chance to watch other.

Actually, it's not even that I don't have a chance. I choose not to watch other history podcasts because I don't want to accidentally copy, you know, because we all do it anyway.

Because, you know, you just get into this, so. But I do. When I see yours come up in my feed, I do make sure to watch it because I like. I like the way you guys do it, so there you go.

Thank you on that. So what was the question? No, it was, why are we doing this?

Scott: 00:04:41

Right. Well, I had never heard of it until you brought it up and then you're like, this is great.

Jenn: 00:04:45

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, so why.

Matt: 00:04:48

What about you, Jen?

Jenn: 00:04:49

I. Same thing. I had never seen it either. And I'm a huge John Wayne fan.

Matt: 00:04:54

Yeah, well, not huge enough.

Jenn: 00:04:56

Not huge enough.

Matt: 00:04:57

You saw the one where he plays Genghis Khan or whatever the hell it is, but I never saw that one.

Jenn: 00:05:05

And you know, and I, I, we. I'll be honest with you, Matt. I watched this and loved it, so.

Matt: 00:05:12

Of course you did.

Jenn: 00:05:13

Right.

Matt: 00:05:13

One Wayne, and it's John Ford.

Jenn: 00:05:16

Yeah.

Matt: 00:05:16

And William Holden.

Jenn: 00:05:17

Yeah, right.

Matt: 00:05:18

And it has all the John Ford classic like, tropes. Right. You got the drunken Irish sergeant.

I don't know if Victor McLaughlin was dead by this point or if he just Wasn't available, but they had another drunk Irish sergeant.

Scott: 00:05:31

Right.

Matt: 00:05:31

Yeah. Uh, you. You got the. The. Just the. The. The hoof pounding, heart pounding. Riding like, you know, like the.

The horse riding in John Ford movies is so good.

Jenn: 00:05:43

Yeah.

Matt: 00:05:44

So good.

Scott: 00:05:45

And even the opening shot, he likes.

Jenn: 00:05:47

The panning shots of the. Yes.

Matt: 00:05:49

That opening shot, I just rewatched it right before doing this. I came home early and I was like, I gotta rewatch it and refresh my memory with this and everything.

And I usually fast forward right through credits, but I love that opening sequence. The silhouette of the cavalry on the ridge. And the camera doesn't move. They just go. And they're. And they're singing a song.

He always has a song that the cavalry's singing.

Scott: 00:06:14

And.

Matt: 00:06:16

And then when it's over, it cuts to the stairwell on a riverboat.

Jenn: 00:06:22

Yep.

Matt: 00:06:23

And a guy walks down, and you're like, whatever. The second guy, third guy, forget which order he's in, comes down and it's the Duke.

Jenn: 00:06:31

Yeah.

Matt: 00:06:32

And he's got that Duke walk, and he's draped in a wet poncho and his hat is all soaking wet and everything. And from that first shot, I'm just like. I remember as a little kid, I was. I was hooked.

I was like, this guy's so cool, you know, he reminded me of my grandfather, too, so it kind of helped. But, yeah, I love that movie. I. I remember as a little boy, my.

There was a video store on the way home for my father's work, and once in a while he'd stop in and he'd rent videos, and he always. And I think I think this was a strategic move on his part because I think he saw even in the 80s, which, you know, we look back at the 80s ago.

Oh, you know, that's quaint. But I think he saw movies at that time just getting shitty, right? And he's. He's like, it's. We're not going to suddenly get better. Right?

Scott: 00:07:27

Right.

Matt: 00:07:27

I got to show this kid what real movies are, what a real movie star is. And so I'm going to bring home some Duke movies. And he would. And.

And I remember when he brought this one home, and I don't know what it was, it just grabbed me and I loved it. It's. There's a lot of things, you know, watching it today, there's a lot of things. The story, I couldn't care about.

I could not care less about the story. All right. Certainly not the whole romance. Duke. Constance towers, you know, But I like the.

The kind of the comedy and mischief that her in the mix kind of adds to the whole thing. Like when they're trying to hide from that Confederate brigade across the river and she goes running out screaming, help her to the ground.

Like, that's fun, you know, but. Yeah, I just. There was something about it as a little boy that it just really grabbed my imagination.

And, you know, as I get older, I know now it's the combination. It's the Ford Wayne Holden combination there. It's just great. And then you got other, like John Ford Staples, like Hank Warden, who plays the.

One of the scouts, is the preacher. And he's like. He talks all weird. I can't remember the line that he has. But he's in a lot of those movies. Oh, and then there's this.

The scene with the two Confederate deserters and the sheriff. Yeah, yeah, right. And that's Uncle Jesse. Did you recognize Uncle Jesse from Dukes of Hazard? I didn't realize that that was Uncle Jesse.

Jenn: 00:09:15

That's perfect. How perfect is that?

Matt: 00:09:18

The other guy is Strother Martin, who's been in a lot of other John Wayne movies. He was in True Grit. He played the Horse Raider. Yep. I think it was also in Cool Hand Luke.

If I'm not mistaken, is that what we have here is failure to communicate. I believe he's that guy.

Jenn: 00:09:33

That sounds like him.

Matt: 00:09:37

So there's a lot of good things about that movie, but ironically, it didn't do well when it came out. No, no. So.

Scott: 00:09:44

So do you know. And actually, I'm glad you brought that up, because I pulled this up.

movies of: 1959

Jenn: 00:09:57

I just thought. Your notes.

Matt: 00:10:01

I'm going to. Let's see,: 1959

Scott: 00:10:12

Clue about one. Charlton Heston, Chariot Ride.

Matt: 00:10:16

Oh, the.

Scott: 00:10:20

Yeah, you know, it's.

Matt: 00:10:21

Wait, not the. Not the Ten Commandments.

Scott: 00:10:23

No, the other one.

Jenn: 00:10:24

The other one?

Matt: 00:10:25

Yeah. Ben Hur.

Scott: 00:10:29

Ben Hur. That one was the number one massive, huge, huge hit. Some of the top ones that people would recognize. The Shaggy Dog. Some Like It Hot.

So that came out then. North by Northwest. Great.

Matt: 00:10:43

I can't believe I didn't get that one. That's why.

Scott: 00:10:45

And actually, Rio Bravo came out that same year, so.

Matt: 00:10:50

Okay.

Scott: 00:10:51

Yeah, I mean, that's. I looked on a couple sites just to kind of make sure. So there were some, there were some big, big movies, you know, at the time.

And I think that, I think this, like you said, it didn't do well. So I was trying to find like where it was on the list and it would have been top 20, top 30, something like that. But.

Matt: 00:11:07

Well, yeah, I heard, I read that it broke even and. But Duke ends, William holden both made 750,000 on that.

Scott: 00:11:17

I, I saw that too. That was like. Yeah, I mean that's, that's Tom Cruise money back then and then.

Matt: 00:11:23

Right.

Jenn: 00:11:24

They're sharing top billing.

Matt: 00:11:25

Yes.

Jenn: 00:11:26

Like it's John Wayne and William Holden. So it kind of lets you know William Holden was a star with as himself too. Wayne is a little older in this. He's 52. Holden is I think 41.

There's 11 year age difference between.

Scott: 00:11:41

Okay.

Jenn: 00:11:42

And you really can't tell. I really. Wayne never looks as old.

Matt: 00:11:46

I think not until he gets old.

Jenn: 00:11:49

Not telling. True grit and stuff, right?

Matt: 00:11:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know when it was when he had lung cancer, that's when he started to look old.

Jenn: 00:11:56

Yes.

Scott: 00:11:57

Yeah.

Matt: 00:11:57

I think that was 64, 63.

Jenn: 00:12:01

Sons of Katie Elder.

Matt: 00:12:03

Yeah. That was his first movie back.

Scott: 00:12:05

Yeah.

Matt: 00:12:05

And he had it when they were doing the, the shootout scene in the creek between takes. He had to grab an oxygen mask.

Jenn: 00:12:11

Yeah.

Matt: 00:12:12

And because he only had one lung. No, but that. What was the other thing you just said that. Oh, I can't remember.

Scott: 00:12:19

Sorry.

Matt: 00:12:20

Can I curse?

Scott: 00:12:21

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:12:22

The William Holden was. They're both like big stars at the time. She Constant powers is only 26. So I.

Matt: 00:12:32

Gross. Right?

Jenn: 00:12:33

So she's like half the age. I was like.

Scott: 00:12:38

So I will say one of the things, one of the things that surprised me about this movie when I watched it, because I think I watched it. We had first started talking about trying to do this like probably over a year ago. Then we moved and things just kind of happened.

But I had watched it initially after we had first started talking about it and I watched it by myself. I think she was out off doing something and I'm. And we always joke. I'm not the history buff. Right. I'm the production guy.

I like, I like kind of doing the behind the scenes stuff. But I was surprised again how much I enjoyed this movie. And I thought she actually did a phenomenal job playing opposite of someone like John Wayne.

Jenn: 00:13:14

Yeah.

Matt: 00:13:14

Yeah.

Scott: 00:13:15

It's even more amazing that she was 26.

Jenn: 00:13:18

Yeah. And that she's playing up that whole. I love, I love when they first meet her and she plays up that Southern Bell and, like, tries to use it to her.

Matt: 00:13:26

For her to say. Fiddly D. Yeah.

Jenn: 00:13:28

Right. Like, she's just playing up that whole Persona, trying to, like, throw them off. And it's working for most of them, but.

Matt: 00:13:37

Yeah. You know that. It's funny, though, that their age. Because I'm. I'm 47, so 52 is not much older than me at this point.

Jenn: 00:13:45

We're the same age, Matt.

Scott: 00:13:46

You and I.

Matt: 00:13:47

Are we.

Scott: 00:13:48

No.

Matt: 00:13:48

Congratulations.

Jenn: 00:13:49

Yeah. It's a good year.

Matt: 00:13:52

Yes. Okay. For you, maybe. John Wayne looks much older than me than I do, I think. Or at least I think people matured faster then.

I'm still, you know, I think they.

Scott: 00:14:08

Lived a little harder. Yeah.

Matt: 00:14:10

Yeah, they lived a little harder. And. And you just. Once you were able.

You just went out into the world and you made something of yourself, you know, like, that Constance Towers was 26 is kind of astounding to us because her. Her character and the. And the way she plays it, it shows a lot of maturity and sophistication that.

I mean, I know she's an actress, but you gotta be able to draw on something. Right? Like, you can't play a rocket scientist if you can't pronounce a word that has more than five syllables.

Jenn: 00:14:43

Right.

Matt: 00:14:44

Like, you know what I mean? Like, so that she's able to do that and go toe to toe with them. I. Yeah, I didn't think. I figured she was in her 30s, to be honest. Yeah.

I didn't realize you said 26.

Jenn: 00:14:55

Yeah.

Matt: 00:14:56

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:14:56

She was 33.

Matt: 00:14:57

Yeah. Still alive or did she just die recently?

Jenn: 00:15:00

I. I don't know.

Scott: 00:15:01

I'll have to look that to look that up.

Jenn: 00:15:04

She's still alive. She's 92.

Scott: 00:15:06

Wow.

Matt: 00:15:06

92.

Scott: 00:15:07

Good for her.

Jenn: 00:15:08

I know.

Matt: 00:15:08

Good for her.

Jenn: 00:15:09

I'd like to meet her.

Scott: 00:15:10

Yeah. A little cheers to her. I mean, part of. Part of the. What I was impressed by and what I enjoyed about the movie was how they played off of each other.

They were always. It was almost like. It almost felt like. Like a sibling type rivalry, right? Yes, Like. But they.

They were able to work in some romance in, you know, quote unquote, that. But that wasn't the focus, like you said.

Matt: 00:15:33

Right.

Scott: 00:15:34

But John Wayne was always trying to, like, get his dig at her. And then she was always trying to do the same to him. And you'd see her smirking, you know, over here when he saw.

He pissed her off or something like that. And she got all. Got all in a huff and that. He's like, okay, good. That's what I was going for. You're right.

Matt: 00:15:49

And I wonder if it's the age difference that makes it seem like a big brother picking on his little sister.

Scott: 00:15:54

Yeah, it was. It was a little bit that dynamic, and I just really enjoyed that because I think, like you said, that was kind of the comedy piece, right.

They're tackling her. She's trying to run for help. Or, you know, he's. He's acting like he. Like the two bums, right? Yeah, the two guys. The. Right.

Matt: 00:16:11

And he goes with Sheriff.

Scott: 00:16:13

And he goes. And socks. He puts his gloves on. She's just standing there. She's all mad that he didn't do anything more.

And then he punches them both out in the face. Classic John Wayne. One punch, right? And. And then you see her face change. He's like, oh, maybe he does care. Right. He punches him out.

But I enjoyed that kind of push, pull, push, pull between them.

Matt: 00:16:35

Well, and then he goes over to her and asks if she's satisfied now. And she says, well, yeah, I guess you kind of surprised me or whatever.

Scott: 00:16:42

And.

Matt: 00:16:42

And he goes, you know, your sense of justice surprises me. And he goes, justice? He's like, they would have been extra baggage because I couldn't trust them any more than I.

Scott: 00:16:51

She's like, you trust me?

Matt: 00:16:52

He's like, yeah. She wants him to go, no, no, no, no, no. But he's just like, yeah, no, I don't trust you. And then he just rides off. Yeah.

Scott: 00:17:01

Right?

Matt: 00:17:01

That's good stuff. Yeah.

Scott: 00:17:04

Good writing.

Matt: 00:17:05

Good.

Jenn: 00:17:05

No, I was like, it's still showing this conflict with the north and the South. Right. Like, but. But beyond everything else, he's a Union soldier and she's a Confederate. Like, so they still are adhering to their loyalties there.

Matt: 00:17:18

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:17:18

Even if they're man and woman, even if they have some kind of attraction towards. It doesn't matter. Their loyalties are with their respective governments, you know?

Matt: 00:17:26

Yes. And you know what I like about that, too is. And this is just the way movies used to be made. And I don't say this as.

As a prude, but, like, okay, I. I understand. You know, soldiers go off, they leave a woman behind. Maybe they meet a woman while they're out in the field and romance happens. Sex happens. I get it.

But I. I don't. I'm at the age I don't need to see that in my war movies anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you can hint at it, that's fine.

But give me the goddamn war. And. And so, like, the fact that he doesn't even really touch her in a romantic way until he leaves her.

When he grows, holds her hand and he just says, tells her that he's in love with her. I was like, thank you, John Ford. Like we didn't need today.

If they remade that movie today, there'd be sex scene under the moonlight behind a bush somewhere while all the soldiers are asleep. Right. Or she'd sneak into his tent or something like that and, and it would be 45 seconds of completely useless screen time. But to see a boob or two.

Yeah, yeah.

Jenn: 00:18:40

And I agree because I feel like, I feel like you don't even need that. I feel like the angst is, it's much more powerful. The tension, yeah, the tension is much more powerful. Right.

And I, I, I love that, I love that scenario between the two of them and where they just, they can appreciate who each other is in their respective character, but it's not, it's not who they are, you know, so.

Matt: 00:19:07

Right, yeah.

Scott: 00:19:09

Now, now our audience may not know this and John Wayne, John Ford fans may not know this, but this was actually, I believe I look this up. John Ford's only Civil War kind of specific movie, right.

The only movie he made that was about an, an event, quote unquote, based on, you know, real facts, real life about the Civil War. Now he had a lot of movies where John Wayne or the character came out of the Civil War. They were a Civil War veteran of some sort.

Matt: 00:19:39

Right.

Scott: 00:19:40

This was the only one. So do you think that's kind of why it appealed to you a little bit more than others, especially with your kind of love of Gettysburg?

Matt: 00:19:48

No, because at the age. No, I hadn't even really, I hadn't been to Gettysburg. I had, I wasn't, I was superficially into history, like I was into the look of it all.

I've always been a visual person and I think the, what drew me into the somewhat 18th, but mostly 19th century is just the aesthetic of it first.

Scott: 00:20:12

Sure.

Matt: 00:20:12

And I think that's why I like to paint. I like to, to, I like photography and videography. I like to watch movies. I just like pretty looking things.

Or not pretty necessarily, but interesting looking things. So when I saw the horse soldiers, I don't even know if I was 10 yet. I might have been like 8. Yeah. Or even younger.

I, I was very young when I watched that. And you know, like, I probably watched it the same year I saw they Died with their Boots on for the first time.

I don't know if you ever saw that with Errol Flynn.

Scott: 00:20:47

Yeah.

Matt: 00:20:47

And all those, like, classic, old, completely unrealistic war movies.

Jenn: 00:20:54

Yeah. They Die with the Boots on is definitely not historically accurate.

Matt: 00:20:59

It's the stupidest movie ever. But I loved it as a kid.

Jenn: 00:21:02

Yeah.

Matt: 00:21:03

And. And, And I was caught up in the. In the. The romance of it and the. The pageantry of it and everything like that. I thought it was all really cool.

It didn't have a clue about getting shot or anything like that.

Jenn: 00:21:17

Well, yeah. And John Ford, I mean, he shoots beautifully and like you said. So you're. You're loving the uniform, the Calvary. Right.

Everyone's on horses and they're wearing the. The scarves and they have the bugle and they're wearing the hats. Right. And they have the boots, the breeches.

Like, it's this whole look of them and then there's tons of them.

Matt: 00:21:37

And the look that they used there, I believe, were. Those were leftover Spanish American War uniforms for the most part. Well, the John Wayne and.

And William Holden and a couple of the other characters, they're wearing blouses with, you know, suspenders over them and their. Their rank insignias are on the sleeve of. Around the shoulder. The shoulder boards for the officers or the chevrons for the noncoms.

Like they're on the shirt.

Jenn: 00:22:09

Yeah.

Matt: 00:22:09

There's a few, like Colonel Secord, he wears a wool jacket now, not a uniform Nazi. So I could be getting this wrong. That looks more Civil War to me, but I would bet that's probably left over from the Indian Wars.

But I could be wrong on that one. As somebody watching, I'm sure, knows the difference. But they. But it looks cooler.

The Spanish American War uniform looks cooler on John Wayne and on William Holden.

Jenn: 00:22:38

Yeah.

Matt: 00:22:38

And. And you put them on a horse with that.

The lines like this, the, you know, the lines of the suspenders and the piping on the pants with these big, tall. You know, Duke was a tall guy. He's on this horse and his legs stretched out and everything. It looks good. It's aesthetically pleasing in the shot.

And so. Yeah. And. And back then, this. This notion of historical accuracy in movies is a very recent thing. Back then, they're like, it. Make a movie.

It's a picture.

Scott: 00:23:10

They would say, make it look good. Just make the picture.

Matt: 00:23:13

It's all about just getting it done, you know, so. But I. I don't know. I just. Yeah, I think it's so cool. There's. He's. He plays Sherman in How the West Was Won. And there's a scene about.

I Believe it's Shiloh. Short scene with him in it playing Sherman. So he has a cameo there, but it's not a Civil War movie. But he is in the Civil War section of that movie.

Yeah, you're right.

Jenn: 00:23:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is. It is. And I know Ford likes the Civil War character.

e, when we were talking about: 1959

It's based on the group. They're. I'm saving Grisson Raiders. I know I've been saying it wrong.

Scott: 00:24:09

My historian wife can't pronounce a lot of. She always. So one of the things we always joke about. So instead of saying Corinth, Mississippi, she says Corinth.

And I was like, it's Corinth, like Corinthians.

Matt: 00:24:21

How do you say cavalry? I didn't catch it. Do you say we're.

Scott: 00:24:24

He's a.

Jenn: 00:24:24

He's a cavalry. Yeah, yeah. But.

Scott: 00:24:26

Yeah, but, yeah. Smart as a whip.

Jenn: 00:24:28

I know the pronunciation always gets me. Always gets me. I'm always like a. A Ron. But no, I. I really do feel like the Civil War.

I. I like that they took that story and reworked it a little bit. But that story, it's one of those great stories of the Civil War that not many people know about, but it's there, and it's kind of cool.

And we were out. Like, this is kind of how I. We came back around. We had talked about the horse soldiers. We're like, yes, we're going to do this.

I had gone out to Lagrange. I had gone out to. To shoot a house. Woodlawn, where Sherman had stayed. This lady had bought Woodlawn.

Scott: 00:25:09

He had made his Civil War headquarters.

Jenn: 00:25:10

He made it his Civil War headquarters there. She invited me out to film the house. She had told me all these ghost stories there. I was like, awesome. And then she left me alone in the house.

I was like, awesome. This is great. Right?

Scott: 00:25:19

Wow.

Jenn: 00:25:19

Which I'm always like, please don't show yourself. I'm always. Every time I'm alone in a. In a ghost house, I'm always like, please, if you show yourself, I'm going to walk right out the door.

So please don't like. But if you want me to know something, out. Huh?

Matt: 00:25:32

Would you be afraid?

Jenn: 00:25:34

I don't think I'm never afraid. I just, it would startle me enough to be like, I don't want to mess around with it. Like, if a house tells me to get out, I'm getting out.

Like, I'm not going to be like, okay, well, I'm just going to figure this out and hang around and, and see what's going on. No, like in Poltergeist, if I walk out of the room and walk back in and all the dining room chairs are on the table, I'm going to keep walking.

Matt: 00:25:57

Yeah, leave that.

Scott: 00:25:58

Probably wise.

Matt: 00:25:59

Yeah.

Scott: 00:26:00

I'm like, fair enough.

Jenn: 00:26:02

Not doing this, but it was a super cool place and I was there and she's, she, she had bought a couple places there and she's trying to revitalize the whole lagrange area. And she told me to come down to the main street and look at some old photographs of Woodlawn and.

And they had a historic marker for the grist and raiders. And I'm like, oh, yes, we're soldiers. We need to do this. This is where they left from. They left.

Matt: 00:26:25

So that was the reminder to get back in touch with me.

Jenn: 00:26:28

I don't know. My reminder to watch this movie and to do this story because it really is based in history.

Matt: 00:26:35

Yes, it is. It is.

Jenn: 00:26:36

And I love, I love that as much as it's. He's not Benjamin Grierson. Gerson was actually a musician. I think he's supposed to have been like a he.

Scott: 00:26:47

So, so John Wayne's character. And I remember writing this down, his character, he was like, he built railroads or whatever.

Matt: 00:26:53

Yes.

Scott: 00:26:54

And that before he joined the army. And so that's. I was one of the notes when I watched these movies because I don't retain them like my incredibly smart wife does.

I take notes on my phone. And that was one of the things that I wrote down was John Wayne's character. There's this again, push, pull all throughout.

And there's this conflict in him. And obviously the conflict is with him and the doctor, but the conflict is also him and what he used to do in building railroads.

And now he's going through and destroying railroads for the war.

Jenn: 00:27:22

Yeah. And Grierson's supposed to, in real life, was a musician, got kicked in the face as a kid, hated horses. Right. And now he's leading this, this raid.

And I think that they're playing on that same kind of anti hero kind of thing. There's someone who's doing something very heroic, not in their character.

Matt: 00:27:41

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:27:42

You know, they're following through with this Mission that is so important and really requires a lot of, you know, strategy to do a raid. I try to explain to people like a raid is a lot like the do little raid. It's not meant to really have a battle.

You're not really there to, to meet the enemy. You're there to hit and go as.

Scott: 00:28:02

Quick as you can to wreak havoc.

Jenn: 00:28:03

Like you're there to just make them come to you. And you're gone by the time they get there. You're not there to meet the enemy. And, and I thought it was so neat. Gerson, they say that, right?

Grierson, he studied raids like he had never done one before. He studied how to do it, the strategy of it, and he's like, I'm just gonna do this old school strategy and I'm just gonna follow this.

And it was very effective because he didn't have much background in it.

Matt: 00:28:31

Well, and I just read that his was one of like three or four other raiders.

Jenn: 00:28:38

Yes.

Matt: 00:28:39

Yeah. At the same time. They're all supposed to go off at the same time to just create havoc and confuse the Confederates. Yeah. And.

And what's interesting is his commander was named Hurlburt and so is Colonel Marlows. I don't know why they kept his name. There are some things in the movie that are similar or the same where he meets Grant.

Jenn: 00:29:09

In the very beginning of the movie, he meets Grant.

Matt: 00:29:11

Right?

Jenn: 00:29:12

Right on the riverboat. Like he's meeting him in basically in Memphis. Right. He's on the riverboat there.

And look in the maps and the charts and they're talking about where he's going to go. And, and so that's real, right?

Scott: 00:29:24

That's, that's how the gruesome raids kind of started. Right. Kind of gave a verbal order. Verbal order, go do this. I'm not going to write this down, but.

Jenn: 00:29:32

Right.

Scott: 00:29:32

Go do it.

Matt: 00:29:33

Yep.

Jenn: 00:29:34

So that was accurate.

Matt: 00:29:36

Yeah. So it's, it's funny why. I, I guess. But also I read that like the production was plagued with a lot of.

One of the stuntmen died and John Ford was like beside himself after that. Yeah. And like just kind of didn't want to finish and they got. And it really makes sense because the end of it, it's just like how the.

Did that all happen?

Scott: 00:29:57

Like, you know, so, so I read about that. I looked it up before, before we got on. And so it was. The stuntman who died was Fred Kennedy. And so this is a long man. So.

So this stuntman had actually worked with Ford on numerous, numerous Movies. And so right when this guy. When this guy died in that final scene, when at the.

At the bridge and all that stuff, John Ford just decided to cut the movie short. Because they were originally, from what I saw online.

Matt: 00:30:24

That's right.

Jenn: 00:30:24

They're supposed to go.

Scott: 00:30:26

Yeah, they were supposed to go down basically, to Baton Rouge, is supposed to go further south, kind of like the raid actually did, and kind of have some triumphant, you know, final scene. But after that, I think they just kind of, you know, cut it short.

Jenn: 00:30:38

Yeah, he just. He. They said he kind of lost his fire for the rest of the movie after that and just ended it.

Matt: 00:30:43

Which I guess that's the. The problem with working. Always working with the same people. You know, it's like when one goes in the middle of a job, like, that's pretty tough.

And especially. It probably was not a fun thing to watch either. Whatever stunt he was doing that killed him, you know?

Jenn: 00:31:00

Yeah.

Matt: 00:31:01

But, yeah, those guys there.

There was another shot when the cavalry is running over the bridge when they're charging in the end there, and one of the guys gets hit and goes to take the fall over the bridge and like, I guess, doesn't clear the. The railing, the side. And like. Like, you could see, like, as he's going over, his. His thighs hit the bridge itself. And I'm like, that had to.

That had to hurt.

Jenn: 00:31:33

There was a real stuntman man.

Matt: 00:31:34

Yeah, they really were back then.

Scott: 00:31:36

And safety things.

Matt: 00:31:37

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:31:38

What's wrong with that? Paycheck.

Scott: 00:31:39

This is back before they had all these, like, safety briefs and all this stuff.

Matt: 00:31:42

Oh, yeah. No, they just learned how to take balls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's.

It's crazy what they did, but that's when men were men, you know, Girls were boils and men were men.

Jenn: 00:31:53

That's right. John Wayne, like John Wayne and William Holden, they have that. They have that conflict there where.

ly wasn't an issue. So he had: 1700

Scott: 00:32:06

That's actually a question that I had.

Jenn: 00:32:08

It was a quick. That was. And. And really only Gerson and his aide knew what they were doing. He made sure no one else knew the plans.

So that whole story of them telling the plans and the lady listening, that's all kind of made up.

Scott: 00:32:25

Right, right.

Jenn: 00:32:26

So. So he made sure he didn't. He didn't want other people to know and then say something or get caught and then give it away. Right. So.

Matt: 00:32:34

Right. But. But they kind of do allude to how at least the soldiers didn't know what they were doing because there's, you know, the part where.

What's his name? I want to say Jimmy Dean, but it's not Jimmy Dean. He reminds me of Jimmy Dean playing the banjo and he's like.

Yeah, his name was Ken something, and he's playing the banjo. And he's like, leaves being canceled, raids effemintance, or whatever the hell he was saying.

Jenn: 00:33:04

Yeah.

Matt: 00:33:05

And, you know, he's like calling into question what's going on and everything. And then when they're going south, the guy Dunker, one of the spies or the scouts.

Jenn: 00:33:15

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: 00:33:16

And he's like, now him. And the sun raises in the east and settles in the west and, you know, whatever. That way we just come from the north.

Well, then what way is that going to be? And then south, you know, and like. So they're kind of hinting that they don't know what they're doing.

Jenn: 00:33:34

Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 00:33:34

They just know they're going somewhere. They do mix a lot of. Not a lot, but a good deal of reality. And I guess maybe they figured, well, that's a good detail. Let's just.

Jenn: 00:33:45

Yeah.

Matt: 00:33:46

You know, let's make it a mix.

Jenn: 00:33:48

There was somebody. I mean, so the men going out as scouts dressed as Confederates was true. They really did do that. And so I thought that was neat. I liked seeing that.

Right. Because that's a great way to hide yourself.

Scott: 00:34:02

Right.

Jenn: 00:34:03

No one's gonna come. You wear your blue uniform, people know for sure you're Yankee.

Matt: 00:34:07

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:34:08

So it's a great way to go out and scout. And they do. Like, they. They do Newton Station. Right. Which was the big hit on the Grossman raid. And they do.

They show them blowing up the two railroad cars, kind of alluding to. They hit the two railroads. Right.

Scott: 00:34:21

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:34:22

So kind of like, you know, makes you. Okay. I get this.

Matt: 00:34:25

Sherman neckties.

Jenn: 00:34:26

Yep. Yep.

Matt: 00:34:28

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:34:28

And so I liked. I liked those kind of things a lot. And I liked. I still like that north and south conflict. And I liked with the.

You know, when he goes into the makeshift hospital and the young boy and. And seeing the young kids that this. The school was not real. With all, you know, with all this school. The kids from the school.

Matt: 00:34:50

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that stuff, though. That's so good.

Scott: 00:34:53

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:34:54

I think they're trying to allude to those VMI students. Right.

Matt: 00:34:57

I believe that's what I always kind of thought it was. Yeah.

Jenn: 00:35:00

Right. But.

Scott: 00:35:00

Yeah.

Matt: 00:35:04

Wasn't there some military academy there? I thought so.

Jenn: 00:35:07

There's a Jefferson Military Academy there.

Matt: 00:35:09

Yeah. And, but, but that wasn't.

Jenn: 00:35:13

No, but that location was used for the north and the South. That location was used for West Point.

Matt: 00:35:18

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:35:19

In the north and the South. So if you remember Patrick Swayze, Right. When he's going to West Point, that's the school. That's the same set. Same, same school.

think, until, like, the early: 2000

Which is kind of what happened with vmi, with the students.

Scott: 00:35:43

Right, right.

Jenn: 00:35:44

You know, and old myths. Right. Like.

Matt: 00:35:46

Right. But so they're saying is like, I guess they figured, well, you know, who's gonna be there to stop the Yankees?

Jenn: 00:35:56

Yeah.

Matt: 00:35:57

But these cadets.

Scott: 00:35:58

Yeah. Well, then they're, like, ancient, you know, like overseer.

Jenn: 00:36:03

Yeah. I think their mother comes out and grabs the one.

Scott: 00:36:10

He's fighting back. He's like, I want to go.

Matt: 00:36:13

And he jumps out the window with his little drum. Yeah, that's right. It's fun. It's a fun movie. Right. Like, like, you know, you're not going to get a history lesson out of this.

Except that if you, if you get curious.

Jenn: 00:36:25

Yes.

Matt: 00:36:26

And you Google is the Horse Soldiers a true story? And you find out about the Grierson raid, then. Okay, now you've learned something real. But I, it's just a fun movie to watch. Like, I, I, I love.

I just love it. I, I don't know why, because it really, if I'm being a film critic, not really that good.

Scott: 00:36:51

Now, the characters are good, though.

Jenn: 00:36:53

The characters are good. The story is basic.

Scott: 00:36:55

I think the characters did a phenomenal job, like with William Holden and John Wayne, obviously, the two strong characters. And I thought, you know, the, the female counterpart, those three, they do such a good job.

And then Ward has his, like, go to, you know, side characters, and they're. And they're all talented. Right. He's got the musician playing the banjo. Yeah.

He's got the, the two, you know, confederates that are trying to hang the sheriff and that whole comedy scene. So he spices it up.

Jenn: 00:37:24

The guy's always trying to drink, always trying to open the bar.

Scott: 00:37:26

Yeah.

Matt: 00:37:30

Oh, that's great. And he goes, the bar is open. And he breaks the bottle in his car. Three dead, 18 wounded. Demolition proceeding is ordered, sir. And the bar is closed.

And the bar is open. Yeah.

Scott: 00:37:44

So I think that's why it was good. It's the Characters were good.

Matt: 00:37:49

First of all, again, you know John Wayne, right?

Jenn: 00:37:53

Yeah.

Matt: 00:37:53

You just love whatever.

Jenn: 00:37:55

He fills the screen.

Matt: 00:37:55

He fills the screen and then you find out he's not just an asshole, he's an asshole for a reason. A tumor, they said it was, and it had to come out right away.

So they stuck a leather strap in her mouth so she could bite off her screams while they cut away to get in there. And what did they find? Nothing. Because a doctor when a. Rooting around in his wife for a tumor that wasn't there and killed her.

Scott: 00:38:26

Yeah.

Matt: 00:38:26

And so that's why he doesn't like William Holden.

Jenn: 00:38:29

And.

Matt: 00:38:31

I.

Scott: 00:38:31

The.

Matt: 00:38:32

The thing is, like, see, John Wayne, I don't really look at him as an actor. And I. Stephen Lang almost punched me in the face. I said, because we. Okay. You want to hear a story?

Scott: 00:38:44

Yeah.

Matt: 00:38:45

Okay. We were.

Scott: 00:38:46

We.

Matt: 00:38:46

It was the 30th anniversary of the movie Gettysburg and all the festivities that we had around town here. And so we went to the Farnsworth House here in town. And like, I'm friends with Bo Brinkman, who was Major Taylor in the movie.

And so he, like, drags me around or whatever. You know, I'll go. And so my girlfriend Cindy and I went, and his girlfriend Chris was there. And, you know, we're all sitting in this little.

There's like a little alcove, a little nook off to the side of the bar. And so we were all sitting back there and Stephen Lang and.

And Tom Behringer were sitting at the bar, but back in that little aisle because it was like, you know, protective. Yeah. And somebody had a medical emergence.

Jenn: 00:39:37

Gettysburg. These are famous actors from Gettysburg. The movie.

Matt: 00:39:40

The movie Gettysburg.

Jenn: 00:39:41

Yeah.

Matt: 00:39:44

So somebody had a medical emergency right in the. The path to get out of this alcove.

Jenn: 00:39:50

Yeah.

Matt: 00:39:50

And so we were stuck back there until the ambulance could come and remove the person. And so, you know, we're all sitting there and whatever, so we gotta, you know, start moving around and everything.

Anyway, I. I go up to the bar to get another drink. Tom Behringer has moved out of the way. So now I go into his space and Stephen Lang is talking to Patrick Fousey, who played A.P.

hill in the movie Gettysburg, and they're talking about actors. And then one of them mentions John Wayne. And then the other one says, oh, yeah, John Wayne, you're on me. Well, oh. And I go.

I go, you know, I don't really think John Wayne was that great of an actor.

Scott: 00:40:35

Oh, my gosh.

Matt: 00:40:36

And Stephen Lang sitting at, like, in the Stool leaning up against the wall. Barely looks up at me. Looks halfway up, like at my navel. Right. And he goes, the. Do you know about acting? And I go, oh, nothing.

I just like to go to movies and watch actors act. And John Wayne, if you would let me finish, was a movie star, but not really a great actor.

And he just looked at me, and I turned around and walked away, and I sat down at the table and I said, stephen Lang almost punched me over. John Wayne.

Scott: 00:41:20

And, and we, and we've. We've talked about multiple John Wayne movies.

Jenn: 00:41:23

Yeah.

Scott: 00:41:24

We've done a top 10 John Wayne video and all that stuff.

Matt: 00:41:26

Oh, God, where was I for that one?

Jenn: 00:41:29

I know.

Scott: 00:41:30

Trust me.

Jenn: 00:41:31

Okay. Okay. Well, what's your favorite John Wayne movie?

Matt: 00:41:34

The Searchers.

Scott: 00:41:35

Oh, there you go. This one right here. So that's what, that's what I was leading into. I was like, if, if Chops were ever in. Yeah.

Matt: 00:41:45

Or the Quiet Man.

Jenn: 00:41:47

So that's my second.

Scott: 00:41:48

So Quiet Man's my favorite.

Jenn: 00:41:50

Yeah.

Scott: 00:41:50

Because I just, I like his comedies a little, A little bit more.

Matt: 00:41:53

Yes. No, those. True Gray. I'm sorry. Searchers. Quiet Man.

Jenn: 00:41:59

Those are my one and two.

Scott: 00:42:01

Yeah, me too.

Matt: 00:42:02

I'm round out the top five. We have War Yellow Ribbon.

Jenn: 00:42:07

Okay.

Matt: 00:42:09

Rio Bravo.

Jenn: 00:42:10

Oh, yeah.

Matt: 00:42:11

And Fort Apache.

Jenn: 00:42:13

Oh, wow.

Scott: 00:42:14

I haven't seen that one yet.

Matt: 00:42:15

Those are my top five.

Jenn: 00:42:17

Yeah. What were ours? It was Searchers, True Grits.

Scott: 00:42:20

Searchers. True grit, quiet man. McClintock.

Jenn: 00:42:24

McClintock.

Scott: 00:42:25

I like. Yeah, that's fun. I like the fun ones. So.

Matt: 00:42:29

Yeah.

Scott: 00:42:30

And then I can't.

Matt: 00:42:31

How about.

Jenn: 00:42:31

It was real Bravo.

Matt: 00:42:33

Yeah, real Bravo's great. Real Bravo.

Jenn: 00:42:37

I love the Searchers. I think the Searchers is his best acting. I think if he should have won the Oscar, it should have been for the Searchers.

Scott: 00:42:43

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:42:43

I think the Searchers, the birth of the anti hero. I think he births Tony Soprano in that character. He births a man who is horrible and doing the most noblest thing in the world. Right.

And you hate him, but you love him. Right. And I, I, he. And he plays it so well. His arc is so beautiful. And I really think that is his finest work. Plus, John Ford.

You talk about beautiful scenes shot in Monument Valley.

Matt: 00:43:15

Like, it's just the camera, like a paintbrush.

Scott: 00:43:18

Yeah.

Matt: 00:43:18

It's like he.

So the thing that's so great about the Searchers, and this is what I was getting at before in the Horse Soldiers, is when he is at the bar taking his shots and telling the story of his wife. Right. That's really to Me. The only scene in the movie with John Wayne where he's acting. Acting and emoting, and I think it's good.

It always gives me that little twinge in my. In my chest when I watch it.

Scott: 00:43:57

But.

Matt: 00:43:58

But they ruin it when he slides the. The bottle and. Who lines the shot glasses up at the end of the bar? You usually put them behind the bar. Like, that's not.

But he slides the bottle down the bar and it breaks the pyramid of shot glasses. And then there's a big orchestral hit.

Scott: 00:44:15

Yeah.

Matt: 00:44:15

And I'm like, that was so good. But you had to ruin it with that, you know, cheesy Hollywood. Yeah, but that's what they did back then. And with the Searchers, you talk about his arc.

The. The thing that's. That the let's go home Debbie. Right?

Scott: 00:44:30

Yeah.

Matt: 00:44:31

Is so great. But why did they dress him like a freaking. With that floppy straw hat and that tablecloth shirt?

Jenn: 00:44:41

Yeah, right.

Matt: 00:44:42

Like he, like, he just, like, raided somebody's picnic and said, let me make a shirt out of this. Like, he looks cool through that whole movie.

Jenn: 00:44:49

Yeah.

Matt: 00:44:50

And then at the end, he goes, oh, he must have, like, picked up a fashion magazine. He's like, this is the latest fashion in Paris, so I'm going to wear this stupid.

Jenn: 00:44:58

And. And it just.

Matt: 00:44:59

It ruins for me. It kind of ruins it. Because he looks like a clown.

Jenn: 00:45:04

Yeah, he does. When he's meeting with. With the chief and he's wearing that big sombrero type hat and it's waving.

Matt: 00:45:10

Around in the wind.

Jenn: 00:45:11

Yeah. It does take away from his.

Matt: 00:45:14

It really does.

Jenn: 00:45:16

His strength. And even John Wayne, the whole time he's been so rough and mean with the doctor.

And then he goes and starts drinking and he tells the story of why he hates the doctor. And that's when the woman has compassion for him for the first time. But I think he's telling that story more because he's watched that kid die. Right.

And that kid can have a life.

Matt: 00:45:35

And. Well. And the kid says every time I put my hand down there. And he just takes his hand away. Yeah, I. That. That scene always kind of. Mom.

Jenn: 00:45:45

Right, right, right.

Matt: 00:45:48

Yourself someday. And he's like, no, look at this mess. But like, I. That scene always chokes me up. Because I mean that. And that kid looks like a boy.

Jenn: 00:45:58

Yeah.

Matt: 00:45:58

Like, he looks like he's 17 years old. And. But the way he. And this is the thing about a leader, whether you're a colonel or a captain or a manager, you're at a.

At a corporation or whatever. Like a Good leader is a form.

Scott: 00:46:17

Of a parent, right?

Matt: 00:46:18

Like, yeah. Not. Not a replacement for a parent. Maybe in the service, you are. Well, you guys are in the service. You tell me.

Like, a good leader has to take care of your needs. Right. And anticipate your needs. And when you're down, that leader can't kick you. That leader has to help you pull yourself up.

And that's what Duke is doing in that scene, is he's fatherly to this kid.

Jenn: 00:46:41

Yeah.

Scott: 00:46:42

And he's.

Matt: 00:46:42

He said, no, no, no, you're gonna be fine. And, you know, you're gonna go. But. But he's probably saying that as much for himself as he is for that boy.

Jenn: 00:46:50

Yeah. And, you know, he's gonna write his mother. You know, he's gonna do it because nothing do it. He is the father. Father figure for everybody here.

Matt: 00:46:59

Yes.

Jenn: 00:47:01

And as you know, that wasn't rare to have young men fighting in the Civil War like that. Right. That's not a rarity. And so that. I did like that depiction of someone so young being a casualty.

Matt: 00:47:15

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's. I was. I was going through a book called Gettysburg by the Numbers, and it said most common age at Gettysburg was 19.

Not average, but most common.

Scott: 00:47:29

Yeah.

Matt: 00:47:31

So now I. I don't quite know what the difference between average and most common is. Maybe one of you was smarter than I in that regard.

Scott: 00:47:39

But if there's some local guys pulling the average up.

Jenn: 00:47:42

Yeah.

Matt: 00:47:43

What's that?

Jenn: 00:47:43

There was, like. If there was some extremely old guys who would pull the average up. Right.

Matt: 00:47:48

Ah, see?

Scott: 00:47:49

Far smarter. Okay. The median and the mean or whatever.

Jenn: 00:47:53

Yeah.

Matt: 00:47:54

But it had. It had the. Do I have that book here? No, it's at the studio. It had the average, which was 25.

Jenn: 00:48:03

See? So you had older gentlemen who.

Matt: 00:48:05

Most common was 19. Okay.

Scott: 00:48:07

There you go.

Matt: 00:48:07

You got it. You're right. So. But most common age is 19. Like, this was a horrific battle.

Scott: 00:48:14

That's wild.

Matt: 00:48:16

Like, I'm 47. I. I couldn't imagine experiencing a 64th of the battle of Gettysburg, let alone, you know, a regiment's worth of it. You know what I'm saying?

Jenn: 00:48:28

Yeah.

Matt: 00:48:29

And These guys are 19 years old. How I. I thinking of myself at 19 years old, I would have come home, like, completely catatonic.

Like, I would have been like Hannibal Lecter when they have them strapped to the board and they got the mask on him. Like, I just. They'd roll me home strapped to a board because I wouldn't be able to function after witnessing this.

Jenn: 00:48:48

These young boys never had lives they never, never had. Lives they never had wives they never had. They never lived right. And they gave everything for their country.

Matt: 00:48:58

That is something that when I. I don't know, a few years ago when I moved down here, I was coming out of some rough times, and I decided to move down here would do me good because I love it here. And it did.

Scott: 00:49:15

And.

Matt: 00:49:16

But I was having a rough day, and I went out onto the battlefield out by the McPherson barn. And I'm sitting there in a chair, and I'm reading from Harry Font's Gettysburg first day book.

And I'm reading about what's going on around where I'm sitting, and I'm just, like, imagining, like, Jesus Christ. I'm sitting in the middle of all this, you know, and there's bullets flying and. And shells exploding and men running and screaming.

And I just took a break from reading because it was kind of sunny and it was. I didn't have sunglasses on. It was killing my eyes. And so I just kind of, like, put my head back and, like, close my eyes and relax.

Then I opened my eyes, and there was these white, fluffy, cotton ball, Bob Ross type clouds floating at a rather high rate of speed because it was a windy spring day. And I just became, you know, mesmerized by them. And I'm staring at these clouds, and I get to thinking, I'm 41. I think I was 41 at the time.

And I'm like, these guys were half my age. And what if that was the last sight that one of these boys saw as he cried out for his mother.

Jenn: 00:50:34

Yeah.

Matt: 00:50:35

And was preparing to meet his maker while hell is going on around him? And it kind of just made me realize, like, the worst day that you have is way better than that. Kids, last day.

Jenn: 00:50:52

100%.

Matt: 00:50:53

He never got to have the bad days that you've been having as an adult. And so buck up. Quit whining. You.

Scott: 00:51:04

Yeah.

Matt: 00:51:04

And get out there and live your life.

Jenn: 00:51:07

Perspective.

Matt: 00:51:07

And that's how I got rid of depression.

Jenn: 00:51:11

Well, and I will say, too, like, you're a historian. I'm a historian. Our job is to make sure that they're not forgotten, even in those last moments of their lives. And they gave it all.

We tell their stories. We remember them, even if we don't know their names. Right. We remember them. We remember. We. We remember what they did.

We remember both sides, what was happening and the. The choices and the thoughts and. And what was going on for both sides, because that's how they're not forgotten. And that's how their stories live on.

And so I think that's an important job as a historian, to do that and to do that. Right.

Matt: 00:51:49

Well, we.

Scott: 00:51:49

We're.

Matt: 00:51:50

We're. You're right. And there's a lot of ways, I think, to do it, and we all have our own way. You say it. I'm a historian with. I don't.

I don't see myself as a historian, though. I don't know what your bona fides are, but I dropped out of college and so, like, I. I'm not a historian. Right.

Jenn: 00:52:13

My bonafides.

Matt: 00:52:15

Yeah, your bonafides. Like, I.

Jenn: 00:52:18

You don't consider yourself a historian because you. Bonafide.

Matt: 00:52:22

Yes. I. I don't have the bonafides for. For that. And Peter Carmichael, you know Peter Carmichael, right? Remember him? He was the.

The director of the Civil War Institute here at Gaisberg. He died last year.

Scott: 00:52:37

He.

Matt: 00:52:38

He and I always used to get into this debate, a friendly argument, friend, for entertainment purposes. And he would tell me, I'm a historian, and I would say that I'm not a historian. And he would go, no, but you are. Look what you're doing.

And I go, yeah, I'm interviewing people who actually did the work. I'm not a historian. I'm lazy. I'm a producer, if you will, or a host, but I'm not a historian.

I'm closer to Scott than I am to you as far as what I'm actually good at. Yeah. I. I don't have the mental bandwidth to remember stories and tell them to people anymore. I used to, but once this became a job and I ran.

I run a business. Like, your creativity gets sapped and your ability to remember things just gets sapped. And so I have to rely on my skills as an interviewer. And.

And frankly, I'm more interested in what other people have to say than what I have to say. I don't think anybody gives a. What I have to say, but I think they do want to hear from the people I interview and interviewing say. What's that?

Scott: 00:53:50

I said. I said, interviewing's fun.

Matt: 00:53:53

Well, yeah. Right. Because you don't need to do the research. Yeah. A Wikipedia article is enough to just. Dangerous, right? You're talking about. Yeah, exactly.

I don't. When I have somebody on who.

Who wrote a book about a subject I have no clue about, and I actually have to read the chapter and write notes out, then I'm like, oh, Jesus, you know, it. Like, it. It. My whole week revolves around the two hours it takes to Read a chapter and write notes and everything like that.

Jenn: 00:54:25

It's back in school.

Matt: 00:54:27

Oh, well, that's what it feels like. Yeah.

Jenn: 00:54:29

Yeah.

Matt: 00:54:30

But no, but I appreciate you trying to lump me in with you and other people who are actually historians, but I really. I must demure and say that I am not. I am just a host.

Jenn: 00:54:42

Well, I would equate that because you make sure the story stays alive, that the story keeps going. Right. People don't forget. And you're very good about doing that.

You take people out to the battlefield, you make sure, you know, when there's reenactments, you're showing people the, you know, the photographs of it stuff. And I think making sure a story doesn't die is the biggest part of what the custodian of history does. I think that's why.

And to bring it back, I think that's why the Horse Soldiers is so important, because I don't think this moment in Civil War history gets a lot of attention.

Matt: 00:55:18

You're right.

Jenn: 00:55:19

Right.

Matt: 00:55:19

Well, the whole theater doesn't get a lot of attention.

Jenn: 00:55:22

Yeah, yeah. Vicksburg gets attention and, you know, some Shiloh gets attention, but really the Grisson Raiders, like that doesn't get a lot of attention.

And as much as important as it was and what it did. And raids are cool. I'm sorry? Raids are cool. Like, what they do is just. It's neat and fun. They're fun.

And so I think this was a great movie idea, like a great movie subject. And I think it gets, like you said, if people want to know more, because it's not accurate and the names aren't even. Right.

Matt: 00:55:56

Right.

Jenn: 00:55:57

But if they want to know more, they could look it up and. And learn about the Grand Raid, which I think there's.

Matt: 00:56:02

There's a few books about it. There's a Timothy Smith, not the Tim Smith from Gettysburg, but another Tim Smith wrote a book about it.

I forget the name of it, but you could just Google Grierson Raid, Timothy Smith. That was, I think, the. I think that's the most recent one, if I'm not mistaken.

Jenn: 00:56:22

Well, I know it was a book, the Horse Soldiers, that they made this.

Matt: 00:56:25

Movie, but that was. That was a novel.

Jenn: 00:56:29

Yeah. And it was more like this. Yeah.

Matt: 00:56:31

I. I don't know. I think that the. The Horse Soldiers is definitely just a fun movie.

There's, you know, if you're used to movies of your own time, more modern movies, let's say, if you're a younger person and you're like, you know, I like Spider man and all that like. Well, you're probably not gonna like this movie, but if you can.

If you can give it a chance and, you know, realize, like, they didn't have the technology we have. They didn't have all these things. But it's that back then it was story driven. It's a fun movie.

Jenn: 00:57:04

They filmed this movie in. In Natchez. So kind of where they end up, right?

They do a lot of the filming in Natchez and they do some filming in Baton Rouge and then they film some in California.

Matt: 00:57:17

Yes.

Jenn: 00:57:17

Yeah, in Thousand Oaks.

Matt: 00:57:18

Oh, wow.

Jenn: 00:57:19

Yeah.

Matt: 00:57:20

Yeah. Is it the. Is it the fight scene at the end?

Jenn: 00:57:24

Yeah, I think there's some of the scenes. Yeah, they had to reshoot and they did it in California out at the old.

I mean, you can see the old ranches they would use for like, you know, bananas.

Matt: 00:57:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's those. It's those like weird mountains they had those fills. Not even mountains.

Jenn: 00:57:40

Little House on the Prairie like they used. They filmed all of that out of there.

Scott: 00:57:43

Malibu Hills. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: 00:57:45

No, there. There is a point in fact, I just caught it tonight.

I never noticed it before, but when I was watching it tonight, and I think it was during the charge across the bridge and when they get into the confederates, I go, wait, that looks like California. Yeah, and so that must be that part. But what's interesting about that is that they did film down in the. You know, in the.

In the area where that kind of happened.

Jenn: 00:58:12

They totally felt it in Natchez. Like they were. They were filming in that general area they use. In the plantation houses. Right. To represent her.

Plantation house, like these old antebellum houses. They were using them and stuff. And so they did use. They did film a lot of that.

But then, you know, they get back and they go, oh, that didn't quite work. And like even the end of Searchers when he lifts Debbie up, that's filmed in a park in California.

They didn't even get to film that in Monument Valley. Shoot it.

Matt: 00:58:44

I never heard that before.

Jenn: 00:58:46

Yeah.

Scott: 00:58:47

Really?

Jenn: 00:58:48

Yeah. If you.

Matt: 00:58:49

That. That like cave looking thing that.

Jenn: 00:58:55

Yeah. So they cut. So the cave, they got that because you can see like she falls and he's chasing her. And that part they got.

And then the close ups, they said they weren't great, so they reshot the close ups again.

Matt: 00:59:06

Oh, the close ups. Okay.

Scott: 00:59:08

Interesting.

Jenn: 00:59:09

That is interesting movie magic.

Matt: 00:59:12

Yeah, that. Yeah, that is. And you know, that is the way the movies ended back then. It was like all the way up until the last moment. It's like terror.

And then it's just, let's go home, Debbie.

Jenn: 00:59:24

Yeah.

Matt: 00:59:24

And then he takes her home and like the movie, there's like two and a half minutes left of the movie when he says, let's go home, Debbie. You know, like that was it. It was just all this adventure and then, ah, it, you know, like, you.

Scott: 00:59:38

Know, happily ever after.

Jenn: 00:59:39

We don't need to, we don't need to tie it up with a bow.

Matt: 00:59:41

He doesn't do that.

Jenn: 00:59:42

It does, he doesn't do that in the Horse Soldiers. Right. He's not a tie it up with the bow kind of person. I mean, I guess in Quiet man he does, but he doesn't really do that.

Matt: 00:59:52

No, he doesn't. Because life isn't tied up in a bow.

Jenn: 00:59:56

Yeah.

Matt: 00:59:57

John Ford is an Irishman.

Jenn: 00:59:59

Yes.

Matt: 00:59:59

Irishmen and women know that life sucks. And you better have a laugh at it and a drink because you're going to need it.

Scott: 01:00:10

Well, I think I want to continue this conversation, but I'm going to put a bow on the Horse Soldiers conversation.

So I think our audience, you know, if you're listening, I definitely, all of us would, would encourage you guys to go watch the Horse Soldiers because seriously.

Matt: 01:00:28

Yes.

Scott: 01:00:29

It's, it's surprisingly good. If you've never heard of it, go watch it again. I'm not a history buff, but I watch it and I just enjoyed it for the movie aspect of it.

Matt: 01:00:38

What did you enjoy about it? Like, I mean, like, what would you say? I'm not a history buff. You just enjoyed the movie. Why?

Scott: 01:00:45

So, so I like John Ford style. I recognize that right away from the opening shots. Yeah, I just enjoyed the characters.

It was a little slow for me in the beginning, but as you got, as I got into the characters of John Wayne and that tension between him and Constance Towers. Yeah, I, I, that was probably one of my favorite parts of it.

And then, and then the little comedic bits that they would throw in with, you know, the, with the sheriff scene and stuff like that, it was, it really was the character tension and the character play that I, I personally enjoy the most because they throw some jokes in there, but then they throw a little bit of a serious side, but not, not too much. Right. And they just kind of keep pulling you along all the way through.

Matt: 01:01:28

I like Sergeant Kirby telling Luki that that third stripe of that second stripe, I forget which stripe, but one of his stripes is a tester stripe. And he has to test the, the brandy or the alcohol or officers, lieutenant.

Scott: 01:01:41

Whatever they throw in little Things like that. And so for. For the average movie watcher, it's just a good movie.

Jenn: 01:01:48

Yeah.

Matt: 01:01:49

Yeah.

Scott: 01:01:49

That's a character. The bottom line, it's. It's not fun. It's not good because of the history. It's fun. It's a good movie. And so I would highly encourage people to.

To go watch that.

Matt: 01:01:59

I agree. I agree.

Scott: 01:02:01

Matt, what do you have to say? What kind of last words do you have about the horse soldiers? And say to our audience, well, I.

Matt: 01:02:10

Would like to thank the audience for watching this far into me rambling. Thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. And as far as the horse soldiers goes, I. I agree with you. It is. It is a fun movie. It.

but you're also going back to: 1950

Scott: 01:02:37

Yeah.

Matt: 01:02:38

ow, but thrilled audiences in: 1959

Scott: 01:02:59

Yeah.

Matt: 01:03:00

Whether you want to believe it, whether you agree with it or not, that's what they do. And. But they also reflect our culture. So it's very interesting because every movie is different. And that movie.

Well, I wasn't alive in: 1959

It's not smooth, every cut is not perfect, every dissolve. You can see where they overlaps the film. But, like, it's real. It's real. It's real film. Real people made it. No computers. The music is an AI.

It's all real human beings, which I'm talking to young people. You are one of them made it. And human beings can make things without computers at all. Really.

Jenn: 01:03:59

Yes.

Matt: 01:03:59

And so just watch it to see what life was like organically before the grit. Digital.

Jenn: 01:04:08

Yeah. The authenticity of it. You can't replicate that even with AI.

Matt: 01:04:13

No, you can't. You can't. And we were just editing something today. We were trying to age it to look like old film.

And no matter how much we degraded our age or 4K video, it still. Still looked like 4K video. Like, it still looked good. And it's. It's not the same. Film is different.

Jenn: 01:04:35

Yeah. Well, thank you.

Scott: 01:04:36

Yeah. Well, Matt, thank you so much for joining us. And to our audience, thank you for hanging on with us to the end.

I'll do what I can in the edit to to keep this thing interesting, but I really enjoyed this because it was an honest conversation and Matt, you were incredibly honest with us and I really do appreciate that.

If anybody's driving out to Gettysburg or driving out in the Memphis area in this area of old Civil War history, this is a great podcast to listen to. So thank you again to our audience. Thanks to everybody listening. We'll talk to you guys next time.

Jenn: 01:05:10

Thank you.

Scott: 01:05:10

Thank you. This has been a Walk With History production. Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny. Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.

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