Episode 138
Historian Reviews The Searchers - Is John Wayne a Historically Accurate Anti-Hero?
☕️ Say thanks with a cup of coffee 😁
Scott and Jen dive into the genre-defining Western film "The Searchers," exploring its historical accuracy and cultural impact. They discuss how John Wayne's portrayal of Ethan Edwards breaks away from traditional heroic roles, presenting a complex character driven by obsession and vengeance. The episode highlights the film's nuanced examination of racism and the psychological toll of violence against the backdrop of post-Civil War America. Scott and Jen also draw interesting parallels between Ethan Edwards and iconic anti-heroes like Tony Soprano, showcasing how this film has influenced modern cinema. Join them as they dissect the layers of this cinematic masterpiece and its lasting legacy in film history.
📖 The Searchers: Making of an American Legend
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:15 - Exploring the Historical Context of The Searchers
13:56 - The Transformation of Ethan Edwards
18:19 - The Evolution of the Anti-Hero
21:41 - Exploring Anti-Heroes in Film and Literature
31:03 - Exploring Deep-Seated Hatreds and Vengeance
35:54 - Redemption and Homecoming
39:14 - The Influence of The Searchers on Modern Cinema
-------------------------------------------------------
⬇️ Help us keep the show going and explore history with us! ⬇️
🧳 Get free travel resources in your inbox.
-------------------------------------------------------
📧 contact: talkwithhistory@gmail.com
Talk with History is a global Top 50 History podcast on Feedspot!
Transcript
From the thrilling pages of Life rides a man you must fear and respect.
Narrator:A man whose unconquerable will and boundless determination carved a lusty, rough and boisterous slice of history called the Searchers.
Narrator:It's John Wayne as Ethan Edwards, who had a rare kind of courage.
Narrator:The courage that simply keeps on and on, far beyond all reasonable endurance, never thinking of himself as martyred, never thinking of himself as brave.
Narrator:So we'll find him in the end.
Narrator:I promise you.
Narrator:We'll find him.
Narrator:Here is a story of a man hard and relentless, tender and passionate, of people who dared to challenge a hostile land.
Narrator:Here is drama of great love and aching loneliness.
Speaker B:I found him.
Narrator:I found Lucy.
Narrator:What you saw was a buck wearing Lucy's dress.
Narrator:I found Lucy.
Narrator:Back in the canyon.
Speaker B:Wha.
Scott:Was she?
Narrator:What do you want me to do?
Narrator:Draw you a picture?
Narrator:Spell it out?
Narrator:Don't ever ask me.
Narrator:Long as you live, don't ever ask me more.
Narrator:And if you don't hear my first holler, you better read my mind.
Narrator:Cause I don't aim to raise no two hollers on any subject at hand.
Speaker B:Yes, sir.
Narrator:Boy, watch that knife.
Speaker B:Go.
Speaker B:Martin.
Narrator:Please stand aside, Martin.
Narrator:Oh, you don't.
Scott:Ethan.
Narrator:Ethan.
Narrator:No, you don't.
Narrator:Stand aside.
Scott:Welcome to Talk with History.
Scott:I am your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.
Speaker B:Hello.
Scott:Today's podcast is the next in our series we call Watch with History.
Scott:The Watch with History series will focus on your favorite historical films where Jen and I review the Hollywood historic classics we all know and love, while also discussing the history behind these films along with some interesting facts.
Scott:We hope you enjoy this Watch With History.
Scott: we explore the depths of the: Scott:We look at the historical accuracy of this cinematic tale and dive into John Wayne's portrayal of the complex character Ethan Edwards.
Narrator:When did you get back?
Scott:Now, this film transcends the traditional Western narrative, exploring themes of racism, obsession, and the cultural clash on the American frontier.
Scott:And then there's John Wayne, known for epitomizing the hero archetype.
Scott:But in the Searchers, does he step into the boots of something else?
Scott:We will navigate the layers of the Ethan Edwards character and compare him to one of the most famous TV characters of all time, Tony Soprano.
Scott:So stick around and join us for what is guaranteed to be a review you'll enjoy and I bet you can bring up at your next dinner party.
Narrator:It's your machine again.
Scott:You're update.
Scott: The Searchers is a: Scott:The story revolves around Ethan's relentless quest to rescue his niece Debbie, who's been abducted by Comanche Indians to during a raid on their homestead.
Scott:As the years pass, Ethan and his adopted nephew Martin tirelessly search for Debbie across the harsh landscapes of the American frontier.
Scott:The film delves into the themes of racism, obsession and the impact of violence as Ethan's deep seated hatred towards the Comanche complicates his pursuit, blurring the lines between heroism and vengeance.
Scott:Set against the backdrop of Texas frontier in the aftermath of the Civil War, the Searchers is renowned for its stunning cinematography, thematic depth, and the layered performance of John.
Narrator:I watch you preach none.
Scott:The film's portrayal of the harsh realities of frontier life, along with its examination of the psychological and emotional toll of a relentless search, has earned it a place as one of the greatest achievements in American cinema.
Scott:Now, Jen, we've been wanting to do this, this watch with history for quite a long time.
Scott:And we kind of came up with this concept of the Searchers versus the Sopranos.
Scott:But before we get into that concept of Searchers versus the Sopranos, can you tell us about the larger historical setting that the Searchers is.
Scott:Is set in?
Scott:For those who may not have seen it or for somebody who's.
Scott:It's been a while.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:So the Searchers is a novel first.
Speaker B:It was written by Alan Lamay.
Speaker B:I read the entire book because the last time we did True Grit, people were surprised that I didn't read the book.
Speaker B:We were comparing the two movies, so I wasn't really talking much about the book as much as I thought that the more recent movie was more based on the book.
Speaker B:And that wasn't true because some people who read the book said that wasn't true.
Speaker B:But this is the book written by Alan Lemay.
Speaker B: It's written in: Speaker B:So you can imagine this book was pretty popular when it came out and right away they wanted to make it into a movie.
Speaker B:The Searchers is set in Texas.
Speaker B: years after the Civil War in: Speaker B:Now it's not shot in Texas.
Speaker B:The movie will talk about the differences.
Speaker B:It's shot in Monument Valley.
Speaker B:John Ford always wanted to shoot it in Monument Valley because of the beauty of the landscape.
Speaker B:But if you're from Texas, you know that ain't Texas.
Speaker B:Texas will be flat and plains.
Speaker B:And that's where the book is based out of, because in Texas at the time there was this American Indian And American war going on between the settlers and the American Indians that were already there, people who were going out and settling and the American Indians that were already there.
Speaker B:There was this fight between the two of them for land, for, for their lifestyle, for just survival.
Speaker B:And the person who this is mostly based off of, the young girl who is actually kidnapped in real life, Cynthia.
Speaker B: ker, that actually happens in: Speaker B:So they're kind of lame's playing with timeline here, even though it's still a historical fiction.
Speaker B:So he's pulling on real events that are happening to tell a story.
Speaker B:The actual event it's based off of was about 30 years before what it's about.
Speaker B:But yeah, 30 years before what it's actually set in.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And he's pulling from a couple actual people to make this story that did happen with American Indians.
Speaker B:So he is, he is pulling from real events to tell one story about America's West.
Speaker B:And that's what's really cool about it.
Speaker B:But that's, that's the timeline.
Speaker B:Our main.
Speaker B:In the book, he's not the main protagonist.
Speaker B:He is in the movie and that's Ethan Edwards and his name is not even the same in the book, but he is a Civil War veteran returned from fighting for the Confederacy.
Speaker B:He's done some time after the Civil War and helping with different things as well.
Speaker B:So it's about three years after the Civil War that he makes his way back to his brother's family in Texas.
Scott:Yeah, and I think that that setting, it is kind of the core, one of the core parts of the movie because like you said, even though.
Scott:Right.
Scott:We're, this is a history focused podcast, we're talking a little bit about how the historical inaccuracies, but there are some accurate depictions because it's based on true life events.
Scott:And this family that Ethan is coming back to post Civil War in the movie.
Scott:Right.
Scott:This, this family has been surviving.
Scott:So he gets there, he gets back and you see these inter interesting interactions between him and the, the wife of his friend.
Scott:You kind of like I was.
Scott:Did there used to be something there?
Scott:And then they actually go out to kind of see, make sure that stuff on their land is doing okay.
Scott:While they're gone.
Scott:The Comanche come, kidnap Debbie.
Scott:He comes back, and then for the next however many years, how many years is he on the hunt for her?
Scott:Is like five years.
Speaker B:It's eight years.
Scott:Eight years.
Speaker B: massacred and she's stolen in: Speaker B: pposed to look more like that: Speaker B: And then by: Speaker B:In the searches, you got these three white families that come out and settle together.
Speaker B:And if you remember from the.
Speaker B:The book and the movie, which is accurate, one family is completely massacred and the young boy survives.
Speaker B:And that's taken in by the Edwards family.
Speaker B:And he is raised as, like, their adopted son.
Speaker B:And he's the one who is actually the main protagonist in the book.
Scott:Oh, I didn't realize that.
Speaker B:And that is.
Speaker B:What's Henry.
Speaker B:What's his name?
Scott:Martin.
Scott:Yeah, in the movie it's Martin.
Speaker B:Martin.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:So it's really his is Martin in the movie.
Speaker B:So Martin is actually, in the book, the actual protagon.
Speaker B:And you get Amos's or Ethan's character through his eyes.
Speaker B:He's telling you what he's seeing with Amos all this time and how he feels about Amos all the time.
Speaker B:Ethan all this time.
Speaker B:And his character is exactly like John Wayne depicts him, but the ending is different.
Speaker B:And because also in the book, he is 100% white.
Speaker B:Now in the movie, they make him half American Indian, half white.
Speaker B:And this is a lot of, like, we'll talk about this, where people say there's a lot of racism in this book.
Speaker B:John Ford does this on purpose to set this kind of contrast for us.
Speaker B:And so these three white families came out, came out and settled together.
Speaker B:Martin's family is massacred right away.
Speaker B:He's adopted by the other family.
Speaker B:And then it's.
Speaker B:When Amos was.
Speaker B:When Ethan comes to visit them after the Civil War, they're kind of drawn out by the Comanche.
Speaker B:They pretend like they are massacring the cattle and they're not.
Speaker B:And it draws them out enough so they can then go and attack their hope, the Edwards homestead.
Scott:And I can see why John Ford kind of shifted it a little bit, because the character of.
Scott:And I'll call him.
Scott:I'll just address him as Ethan Edwards, even though in the book it's Amos.
Scott:Right.
Scott:The character of Ethan Edwards is so much more colorful for something like a movie.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, he's a strong character.
Speaker B:Like, even when I.
Speaker B:I underlined it here in the book, because it's exactly how he's written, is exactly how John Ford wanted him to be played.
Speaker B:And, oh, the Three families, just so you know, they, it hits the Edwards, the Mathesons and the Pauleys.
Speaker B:So those are the three families that come out.
Speaker B:And in the end it's just the Pauleys that survive.
Speaker B:And it's in the end it's the Paulies in the movie who give Debbie back too.
Speaker B:But Amos Edwards was 42 years older than his brother Henry, a big burly figure on a strong but speedless horse.
Speaker B:And he has like he feel, he fills the screen.
Speaker B:And John Ford knew that.
Speaker B:John Wayne, when he is on screen, his, his physical presence is a character within itself.
Speaker B:Like he doesn't have to say anything.
Speaker B:His physical presence fills the screen and gives you this sense of physical domination.
Speaker B:Somebody who is a force to be reckoned with.
Speaker B:Someone who stands alone with his own experience, with his own knowledge.
Speaker B:And so he wanted John Wayne specifically for this part.
Speaker B:He didn't even ask anyone else to play it because he, he filled that description so well.
Scott:Well, and, and I think we did the top 10 top 10 John Wayne movies before and we talked about the Searchers.
Scott:Right.
Scott:And the Searchers is your number one kind of John Wayne movie.
Scott:One of the things you had mentioned before was John Wayne in that scenery, right.
Scott:In that cinematic setting of Monument Valley stands out.
Scott:Right.
Scott:So he's, he's this larger than life character.
Scott:I mean, truly, even in, even in person, even outside of a movie, he's just a larger than life kind of person.
Scott:Like his personality and his presence and that carries through on screen.
Scott:And so when you put someone like that in a setting like Monument Valley, it really just made for movie magic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so I found this other book, which I think this is where I'm going to pull a lot of this research from.
Speaker B:It's called the Searchers, the Making of an American Legend.
Speaker B: And this was just printed in: Speaker B:I wanted to know why they changed his name.
Scott:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, Amos doesn't sound as tough, I get that.
Speaker B:But why would they.
Speaker B:And why they pick Ethan?
Speaker B:So I couldn't find why they picked Ethan.
Speaker B:If you know that, please, or you've heard the story, if you have some insights, please tell us in the comments.
Speaker B:But they said they changed his name from Amos because they dropped Amos because Amos and Andy, the radio TV comedy show, was so popular at the time and they didn't want his name associated with something funny, so they wanted it to kind of stand alone.
Speaker B:Now, Ethan Edwards, that name resonates even in John Wayne's life.
Speaker B:He'll name his son after this character.
Speaker B:And we've talked about it before.
Speaker B:I think it's John Wayne's best performance because he really is showing you an arc, a change of character.
Speaker B:He's playing against type in this.
Speaker B:Now, it's not the first time John Wayne plays against type, but.
Speaker B:But it is the first time he does it, in my opinion, so.
Scott:Well, yeah.
Scott:And it's interesting that you kind of bring up.
Scott:I think a lot of people later in his career saw this as one of his best performances ever.
Scott:He didn't win the Oscar for it, but at the time the movie didn't receive a ton of.
Scott:It wasn't like a top 10 box office hit.
Scott: So it was: Scott: that came out at that time in: Scott: So the money that it made in: Scott:Some movie called, some comedy movie called Bus Stop.
Scott:And so it really wasn't until later in his career and in the impact that this movie had on all these young men, I think for the most part at the time that then became directors and we're going to talk about them very soon and the impact that it had on them and really.
Scott:And now maybe we'll kind of get, you know, start tiptoeing towards, you know, how we're comparing Ethan Edwards to Tony Soprano.
Scott: O show from I think the early: Speaker B:So the character of Ethan Edwards, like I said, Ellen LeMay is pulling on a couple of real facts.
Speaker B: tion of Cynthia Ann Parker in: Speaker B:Now Cynthia Parker is abducted by the Comanches and she lives her life with them for 20 plus years and she's married and she has children with them when she's actually kidnapped back.
Speaker B:And this is again when things are shifting in Texas where it is the American white soldiers that.
Speaker B:That are starting to be more powerful and able to overcome the American Indians.
Speaker B:And so she's kidnapped back and she doesn't really ever acclimate back into the white culture.
Speaker B:And so I think that was one of the things Lame's playing on the.
Speaker B:One of the themes in this book.
Speaker B:But also Brit Johnson is a man who was a cowboy.
Speaker B:He was an Indian scout and he lost his wife and daughters during a Indian massacre.
Speaker B: his wife and daughters and in: Speaker B:Now he's African American, he's a former slave.
Speaker B:He makes his way out west and he's a very formidable man.
Speaker B: n the end, he is massacred in: Speaker B:And in the end, he's killed behind his horse and he scalped.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The U.S.
Speaker B:calvary will bury him with his men with honor.
Scott:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:But it's his story of searching for his family for so long and never giving up that search that lame is playing on his role and what he's doing in the west and how he's driven by, by his morals and his conviction.
Speaker B:And so that's where he's plucking this Ethan Edwards character from.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:And maybe we'll kind of get into John Wayne's character as Ethan Edwards and why it kind of had such a long lasting impact and why one of the things we're kind of putting out there is that this movie was pivotal because John Wayne was known as the hero for a very long time, starting movies in the 20s and 30s.
Scott:Right.
Scott:So he, he's, you know, been in, been in the movie career for a while, but he's finally playing this role.
Scott:He's not a good person.
Scott:He's the anti hero.
Scott:Now that we talk.
Scott:We were talking about this last night as.
Scott:Cause we were getting excited to do the podcast.
Scott:We were talking about anti heroes and anti heroes have been, you know, what, what is an anti hero?
Scott:Essentially it's a kind of one of the main characters, a, a hero or a lead character that lacks some of the conventional heroic qualities.
Scott:So they might be doing something heroic or seen as heroic by the reader, by the viewer, but they lack some of the heroic qualities.
Scott:So they've got some major flaw.
Scott:Or in this case, he is incredibly racist when it comes to the American Indians.
Scott:He's not a good person.
Scott:He is not afraid to just killed indiscriminately for the most part, even though he's doing something that is heroic.
Scott:You're not sure even all the way up to the very end of the movie, if he's even going to let Debbie live.
Scott:Like, spoiler alert.
Scott:Right.
Scott:If you haven't seen the Searcher, just stop this right now, go watch it, then come back.
Scott:But in the end, he does.
Scott:But for John Wayne, that was so different for him.
Scott:And he was such a presence in cinema, in the movie industry that he was one of like kind of, I kind of saw him.
Scott:We were Saying this last night as the, one of the first really big actors that kind of gave permission to leading men to embrace this kind of anti hero type character to be flawed.
Speaker B:To be, to be flawed and have it be a part of who you are.
Speaker B:And what I think that I get so mad we talk about this.
Speaker B:Turner Classic Movies likes to kind of pigeonhole this movie as racist.
Speaker B:But they get a lot of pushback because so many people love this movie for what it broke through cinematically.
Speaker B:It's just a beautifully shot movie.
Speaker B:And Ford is telling a lot of stories here through, through the lens instead of straight out to you.
Speaker B:And so what I think Ethan Edwards does is he is racist.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:He's supposed to be.
Speaker B:He's supposed to be so driven by anger and vengeance that he wants to inflict pain on the American Indians the way he feels the pain they've inflicted on him.
Scott: ing too because, you know, in: Scott:And I'm going to talk about my anti hero scale.
Scott:Scale.
Scott:We're going to see.
Scott:I want you in the comments to kind of tell me where you think John Wayne's character falls on this anti hero scale.
Scott:So I have a list of seven anti heroes.
Scott:I'm going to tell them to Jen and you please put in the comments where you think Ethan Edwards falls.
Scott:Who in between who?
Scott:Because nowadays characters, it's very obvious sometimes that they're an anti hero.
Scott:So I'll start from the bottom and I'll kind of move up to the top.
Scott:So my number seven anti hero is Dexter Morgan.
Scott:This is a very, it was a.
Scott:I don't know if it was HBO or Showtime, but he was this serial killer who didn't want to be a serial killer.
Scott:His Dexter.
Scott:Right.
Scott:So number seven.
Scott:Because he was very obviously doing something, you know, incredibly illegal and wrong, but trying to wanting to be good in like a weird way.
Speaker B:So he was only killing bad people.
Scott:He's only killing bad.
Speaker B:He's a serial killer, but only killing bad people who've done terrible thing.
Scott:A serial killer who, who is killing serial killers.
Speaker B:Yes, that's kind of what it was.
Scott:It was, that was the whole thing.
Scott:So that's my number seven.
Scott:So then there's Tony Montana from Scarface.
Scott:Very obvious bad guy.
Scott:But you're kind of pulling for him at the end.
Scott:I mean, that's, he's the, he's the main character now.
Scott:I think he's.
Scott:I made the ones at the bottom a lot more Reprehensible.
Scott:I think a little more moving up from there.
Scott:We have other anti heroes like Dirty Harry, right?
Scott: that's Clint Eastwood in the: Scott:We talked about Girl with a Dragon Tattoo and Elizabeth Salander.
Scott:Her character is amazing.
Scott:And I would absolutely call her an anti hero because she's doing heroic things.
Scott:She's.
Scott:She's punishing, you know, bad men who've done bad things.
Scott:But she's doing it, you know, without regard for their life and she's doing it in very harsh ways and illegal type stuff.
Scott:Moving up, my number three anti hero is Michael Corleone from the Godfather.
Scott:I still haven't seen a confession to my audience.
Scott:I still haven't seen all the Godfather movies.
Scott:I know, I've seen lots of clips of them.
Scott:But his character I think is, is a classic kind of anti hero because here he is running this mob family, right, the mafia.
Scott:But you kind of are pulled along with him as he becomes the Godfather and you want him to succeed and all, but he's doing all these really just horrible things.
Scott:He's lying to his wife and he's killing his.
Scott:Having his brother in law killed and all this stuff.
Scott:So that's my number three, number two and number one, I think you guys are going to know pretty well.
Scott:So number two is Walter White from the Breaking Bad.
Scott:If you have not seen the Breaking Bad, I think it's one of the highest viewed TV shows of all time.
Scott: lar and this was kind of from: Scott:Bryan Cranston playing that chemistry teacher who was, had like cancer and then all of a sudden starts like making meth and becomes a drug dealer.
Scott:And so you see this interesting transformation from him becoming this chemistry teacher to this notorious crime lord.
Speaker B:Why is he doing it though?
Speaker B:Is he trying to like help his family?
Scott:He's trying to help his family.
Scott:He's trying to help with money.
Scott:I forget how he falls into it.
Scott:We need to watch the first season.
Speaker B:Okay.
Scott:It's phenomenal and absolutely amazing.
Scott:So he is absolutely that anti hero.
Scott:Someone who's starts off with good intentions and just kind of keeps falling down the rabbit hole.
Scott:And my number one anti hero, and you guys would know this from the title of this video is Tony Soprano from the Sopranos.
Scott:That's the HBO show about the.
Scott:The.
Scott: a mob movie or TV series from: Scott:So James Gandolfini plays Tony Soprano.
Scott:And here he is, the kind of head of this family running a crime family, doing awful, horrible, illegal things.
Scott:But then you get to see a peek inside of who he is when he's talking to his therapist.
Scott:And so all of a sudden you become attached to this anti hero.
Scott:So I want you, the watcher, the listener, to tell me where you think Ethan Edwards falls on this anti hero scale.
Scott:Jen, what do you.
Scott:Where do you think he falls in there?
Speaker B:Well, it's interesting.
Speaker B:You have two mobsters in your top three.
Scott:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So you have two Italian.
Speaker B:Italian mafia depictions, which is always family honor and family.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:When you think of the Godfather, when you think of Tony Soprano, he.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:You have to keep it within the blood, the Italian blood.
Speaker B:And you're trying to protect your family.
Speaker B:You're trying to be the best leader of this, to protect this, to move this business forward and protect them at the same time.
Speaker B:And so both, both Coleon and Soprano are trying to do this.
Speaker B:But I also think it's self interest.
Speaker B:Yeah, I also think they're protecting their own self interest.
Speaker B:When you get Ethan Edwards, like, why is he doing this?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Why is he going after Debbie?
Speaker B:It's his brother's daughter.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And in the book, Amos's love for Martha, his brother's wife, is supposed to be just something Amos knows.
Speaker B:Just something Amos, though it's not obvious to kind of.
Speaker B:So in the movie, they make it kind of obvious.
Speaker B:You'll see when he takes her coat.
Speaker B:When she takes his coat, they pause, they kind of touch each other's hands, they look at each other, they give.
Scott:Him that longing look.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so you understand that there is some kind of connection here between Ethan and Martha in the movie.
Speaker B:And so much so, fans have wondered if Debbie is really Ethan's daughter.
Scott:I never thought about that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Is he searching for her?
Speaker B:Because it's.
Speaker B:It's Ethan's.
Speaker B:His.
Speaker B:His own daughter.
Speaker B:Now, that's just the movie.
Speaker B:In the book, that's not understood.
Speaker B:So why is Amos doing this?
Speaker B:It's because of his honor.
Speaker B:This is his brother.
Speaker B:This is the only connection he has had to family his whole life.
Speaker B:And they make a point of this in the book, that he will go off and do things, serve in different kind of ride with different kind of groups, including the war, and then come back to his home base of his brother's family.
Speaker B:And so doing this, he feels very.
Speaker B:I think morally connected to do this because it's the right thing to do.
Speaker B:I don't know what he stands to gain from it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If you think about it literally, if you really read the book and in the movie, it's kind of alluded to, Amos will inherit everything.
Speaker B:He inherits his brother's whole homestead.
Scott:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:If he finds Debbie, it really goes to Debbie.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And he makes sure to kind of keep reminding Martin of that because Martin thinks that all Amos wants is the property and Amos doesn't want that.
Speaker B:But he is responsible for it and he does make a point to make sure it's taken care of while they're searching.
Scott:So he made.
Scott:So the author makes it more obvious in the book.
Speaker B:Yes.
Scott:Okay.
Speaker B:So I think Ethan is much more, in my opinion, the anti hero.
Speaker B:I think he hits the.
Speaker B:The highest echelon because he is a horrible person.
Speaker B:Everything he's.
Speaker B:He's learned in his experience.
Speaker B:All the things he's doing it all for a noble cause, for little or no self benefit.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:And so, you know, my antihero skill, we do it just kind of for fun.
Scott:I think he, he would fall.
Scott:I mean, as far as, like classic characters, he'd be up there at the top with the Tony Sopranos.
Scott:As far as like good versus bad, you kind of got a little bit worse as you went up.
Scott:And then obviously Dexter Morgan.
Scott:Right.
Scott:That one was just kind of at the bottom.
Scott:I think he's kind of in the dirty, hairy Elizabeth Salander range because those two are, are, are kind of seeking revenge of a sorts.
Speaker B:Yes.
Scott:You know, but doing it for the right reasons, essentially.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Ethan Edwards is definitely after vengeance.
Speaker B:So much.
Speaker B:So like, that's where all this overt racism comes in.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when he finds the dead American Indian and shoots his eyes because that way he can't get into heaven in his religion.
Speaker B:And he finds another dead American Indian and he scalps him.
Speaker B:And he just does it just to the fact that scalping him will make him wander.
Scott:Well, and even at one point in the movie, he, he kind of implies that he might not let Debbie live because he, he's.
Scott:He basically says she's not Debbie anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he meets.
Speaker B:What happens is.
Speaker B:And this is what John Ford does.
Speaker B:It's not in the book.
Speaker B:And I want people to know.
Speaker B:John Ford shows you a massacre of American white settlers and then he showed you.
Speaker B:And a massacre of American Indian settlers by the U.S.
Speaker B:calvary.
Speaker B:He shows you both.
Speaker B:He shows you dead bodies in both.
Speaker B:He shows you the landscape of both he shows you women and children killed in both.
Speaker B:That is not in the book.
Speaker B:And he wants it very clear to you that there are no winners in this.
Speaker B:Both sides were doing atrocities to each other and that deep rooted vengeance was really felt on both sides.
Speaker B:And even when Ethan Edwards comes face to face with Scar in the movie, not in the book, they kind of see the, the hate in each other.
Speaker B:Scar is mad because his two sons were killed by white settlers, and Ethan's mad because he killed Debbie's family.
Speaker B:What you don't get in the movie, which is in the book and very difficult for me to read, is when Amos comes upon.
Speaker B:He's the first one to come upon the massacred Edward homestead.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:He finds Martha's arm.
Speaker B:Finds Martha's arm.
Speaker B:And what he says is what he knows what Commanches do when they massacre a woman.
Speaker B:They cut off her arm and they throw it around to each other.
Scott:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so he finds her arm way off and he carries her arm.
Speaker B:And you see Martin go, what is he holding so close to him?
Speaker B:And that's not in the movie at all because that really gets your anger up, get you really mad.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So Ford doesn't do that.
Speaker B:Ford doesn't show that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so I want people to understand, like what Ford is doing here, in my opinion, is he's trying to show how these deep seated hatreds come from somewhere.
Speaker B:And it's two sided.
Speaker B:It's not one sided, it's two sided.
Speaker B:And he wants you to kind of empathize with both sides and why they feel that way.
Scott:And I think John Ford, I mean, it sounds like the book goes kind of way more into depth on that, which typical, you know, translating a book to a movie.
Scott:Right.
Scott:You can only do so much.
Scott:But the, the movie, I think does.
Scott:Does a pretty good job of showing, showing both sides.
Scott:And I remember that scene where he meets Scar and then they go into the tent.
Scott:And then when you first see Debbie, because she's the one showing them the scar scalps.
Scott:And I just, I, I still have it in my notes from, from last time when we did the top 10 John Wayne.
Scott:I was just like.
Scott:That was one of those scenes where I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker B:Yeah, she's showing the scalp of Martin's mother.
Speaker B:Like that's his mother's scalp.
Speaker B:And, and Ethan reminds Martin of that and she, he sees her.
Speaker B:So it's like I said, John Wayne had just seen two white women who were rescued from a massacre who had been with the American Indians.
Speaker B:For years.
Speaker B:And they're so acclimated that they're hysterical.
Scott:Yeah, they're so indoctrinated that they can't.
Speaker B:Even, like, pull them out.
Speaker B:Like they're hysterical.
Speaker B:So lame.
Speaker B:Also kind of gives you a background of what would happen to white children if they were stolen by American Indians during a raid.
Speaker B:Most of the time they were treated as slaves and they were beaten and they were just really put through physical hardship until they were basically adopted by one of the families.
Speaker B:And then they would just be brought up as one of their children.
Speaker B:But they had to not have gone through puberty.
Speaker B:If a woman was kidnapped had gone through puberty, that's what you kind of see from the Lucy character.
Speaker B:She would be very sexually exploited and harmed, abused and to the point that they would kill her, which is what Ethan finds.
Speaker B:And a boy would just be killed, more than likely.
Speaker B:So LeMay's trying to tell you that this is what happened to people.
Speaker B:And when Ethan sees Debbie after all those years, it's supposed to be that she's so acclimated now she doesn't even recognize him.
Speaker B:She doesn't even look up.
Speaker B:She is now a squaw.
Speaker B:So she's now the wife of Scar.
Scott:One of the wives.
Speaker B:So you know that she's been sexually exploited.
Speaker B:And then she.
Speaker B:She looks very American Indian.
Speaker B:Like, they have her looking like a very.
Speaker B:Like Pocahontas kind of look.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:It's movies, but.
Speaker B:And so she looks like an American Indian.
Speaker B:So that's when Edwards really wonders.
Speaker B:Ethan Edwards really wonders, is she salvageable?
Speaker B:Can I get her back?
Speaker B:In the book, it's the same.
Speaker B:Martin is always really worried that Amos is just going to kill her.
Speaker B:And so Martin's trying to always run inter intervention, which is also the same in the movie.
Speaker B:He does that when.
Speaker B:When she runs away and comes and tells him to go away.
Speaker B:Now, in the end of the book is different than the movie, but I will say both really do redeem his character.
Speaker B:In the book, there is a raid on the area, and as a American Indian, he thinks it's Debbie.
Speaker B:Amos goes to grab her and pull her onto his horse.
Speaker B:He's not gonna kill her.
Speaker B:Amos goes to grab her.
Speaker B:It's not her.
Speaker B:He looks up and she.
Speaker B:It's an American Indian woman.
Speaker B:But she shoots and kills him.
Speaker B:And Amos falls off his horse and that's it.
Speaker B:He's dead.
Speaker B:And eventually Martin will find Debbie.
Speaker B:He finds her and they are both like.
Speaker B:She's reminded of the love of her family.
Speaker B:He's Reminded how much he loves her and being a part of the family.
Speaker B:And they basically just fall asleep in the.
Speaker B:In the Western atmosphere, just wondering what their futures hold.
Speaker B:That's the end of the book.
Scott:That's very different.
Speaker B:Very different.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So in the movie, there is the same redemption, but like I said, Ethan is taking the head protagonist role.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:To me, I cry every time because it shows you what is more powerful than hate.
Speaker B:There's only one thing more powerful than hate, and it's love.
Speaker B:And in the end, you don't even know if he's going to kill Debbie because Debbie has said she doesn't want to come.
Scott:Well, and he's chasing her down.
Scott:She's running away, like.
Scott:I mean, she is, like, running for her life because.
Scott:And.
Scott:And Martin still thinks that Ethan's gonna kill her too.
Speaker B:Yeah, he can't catch up, and he can't catch up.
Scott:So John Wayne's chasing her down.
Scott:And it's that classic ending scene where she runs up to the cave, has nowhere else to go.
Scott:He.
Speaker B:He grabs her and he grabs her and you can see her strong.
Speaker B:John Wayne is.
Scott:He's just 6 foot 4, giant man.
Speaker B:And she.
Speaker B:She's still, like, fighting and I think cry, but I think in that moment he sees how much she's been fighting her whole life.
Speaker B:And he says, let's go home.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:And so.
Scott:So he says, let's go.
Scott:Let's go home.
Scott:Debbie says, let's go home, Debbie.
Scott:And so you can.
Scott:You kind of see her kind of curl up into his arms and he picks her up and carries her off.
Scott:Right?
Scott:And then they cut to that, that last scene that now.
Scott:And I'll talk about kind of some of the influences of this movie on directors today and this, that and the other.
Scott:But that last scene where he's.
Scott:He's bringing him home.
Scott:He's bringing Debbie home.
Scott:So it's him, Debbie and Martin.
Scott:And they get her home.
Scott:The family comes to the doorway, and you're seeing.
Scott:You're starting to see everything through the doorway.
Scott:And so the family comes up, you know, to the doorway.
Scott:And it's kind of dark inside the house.
Scott:You're looking outside over the landscape, and Debbie comes up, she comes in, gives the family a hug.
Scott:They come inside.
Scott:You know, everybody starts coming inside.
Scott:And you just see Ethan standing there kind of in this lonely pose where he's like.
Scott:He's holding his arm.
Scott:And John Wayne had actually talked about why he was standing that way.
Scott:He said he had actually seen someone.
Scott:I think it was someone on Set of another movie.
Scott:Yeah, Who.
Scott:Who was standing that way.
Scott:And he always.
Scott:That seeing that person stand that way, he's like, oh, that person looks lonely.
Scott:And just kind of remembered that.
Scott:And so intentionally kind of stood that way so that his character gave off that.
Scott:You know, I did all this stuff, but here I am, you know, still lonely.
Scott:And he turns and walks away.
Scott:He doesn't come into the house.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you're getting a lot.
Speaker B:Again, John Ford is a master of cinema.
Speaker B:Here you're getting just a small peek because you're just getting a doorway in a huge frame.
Speaker B:And you're getting Debbie taken in by that third family that they came out with.
Speaker B:And you see her recognition of them.
Speaker B:You see her remember who they are.
Speaker B:I mean, she's nine years old when she's taken.
Speaker B:She's.
Speaker B:She's about 18 years old now.
Speaker B:And so you see that kind of relaxedness of her, that she recognizes these people as they bring her inside.
Speaker B:You see him alone in the landscape.
Speaker B:He grabs his arm because what else does he have to hold but himself?
Speaker B:And he's standing there with the massive landscape behind him.
Speaker B:And, you know, he doesn't have any tie now to the land.
Speaker B:Now that he's brought Debbie back, that land is now hers.
Speaker B:That was once his, from his brother.
Speaker B:Now it's hers because he has found her.
Speaker B:And where does he go?
Speaker B:He goes back.
Speaker B:It's like he.
Speaker B:His way of life belongs back out in the landscape.
Speaker B:He's part of the land.
Speaker B:He's part of the story.
Speaker B:And she will go on to create a new life for herself, and he's not part of that.
Speaker B:He doesn't go into the house.
Speaker B:And I find that very interesting as he's like a legend now.
Speaker B:And that's what this west has created, these legends.
Speaker B:And that's kind of what he becomes in the end.
Speaker B:It's beautifully shot and it's one of those things that directors dream of doing is telling a story you.
Speaker B:A whole story in just a couple shots in one scene.
Scott:And.
Scott:And it's funny because that scene, as I was doing some.
Scott:Some further research last night before we were recording the podcast today, I mentioned Breaking Bad is one of the top kind of anti heroes.
Scott:So actually the ending of Breaking Bad, there's a tie between Breaking Bad and the Searchers.
Speaker B:Oh, really?
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:So the Searchers, I'll read this clip that I found online here says the Searchers even influence Breaking Bad.
Scott: told Entertainment Weekly in: Scott:Right.
Scott:So that's the.
Scott:The kid that he kind of, you know, kind of trains up and they end up becoming partners for the whole time.
Scott:He can't go through with his plan to kill his ex partner Jesse, and instead saves him.
Scott:Was heavily inspired by the Searchers.
Scott:And comparing the endings, Gilligan said a lot of astute viewers who know their film history are going to say it's the ending to the Searchers.
Scott:And indeed it is.
Scott:So.
Scott:So that.
Scott:I mean, there's another anecdote here that Steven Spielberg has a ritual that every time before he starts a new movie, he settles in to watch the Searchers.
Scott:And he's usually says, like another John Ford movie.
Jen:I try to run a John Ford Film 1 or 2 before I start every movie simply because he inspires me.
Jen:And I'm very sensitive to the way he uses his camera to paint his pictures and the way he frames things and the way he stages and blocks his people, often keeping the camera static while the people give you the illusion there's a lot more kinetic movement occurring when there's not.
Jen:So, you know, and that's sense.
Jen:He was.
Jen:He's like a classic painter, you know, and he celebrates the frame, not just, you know, what happens inside of it.
Scott:Because the way that John Ford, he, you know, he kind of describes it as the way John Ford paints a scene, right.
Scott:And the characters in that and the way he respects the frame, right.
Scott:That setting of Monument Valley, Texas, actually Utah.
Scott:Martin Scorsese always talks about the Searchers journalist.
Martin Scorsese:A journalist or a gossip columnist who had such power were coming out of the McCarthy era.
Martin Scorsese:And how what happens, you go see a western directed by John Ford, whom by that time I kind of figured out was this terrific director and John Wayne in it.
Martin Scorsese:And by that time I put the two names together when they were both on a film, it was usually very interesting for boys, particularly.
Martin Scorsese:And you sit there and suddenly this character, this lonely character comes out of the.
Martin Scorsese:Out of the desert or something, and he's absolutely terrifying.
Martin Scorsese:I mean, he's filled with all.
Martin Scorsese:Well, he's filled with.
Martin Scorsese:He just literally acts out the racism, the worst aspects of racism of our country, you know, and it's right there.
Scott:So there's these huge, huge names that were influenced by John Ford.
Scott:The Searchers, the character of Ethan Edwards.
Scott:And one more pop culture tie that I think our listeners will find interesting is between the Searchers and Star Wars.
Scott:Right?
Scott:So think about.
Scott:This is like Westerns what are you talking about?
Scott:Okay, well, Star wars is kind of a space Western if you think about it.
Scott:So in terms of pop culture, it's the Star wars biggest inspiration on Star Wars New Hope.
Scott:Right.
Scott: From: Scott:Right.
Scott:Think about both of those movies has the same theme applies to both movies stylistically.
Scott:Star Wars, Star wars use of vast desert landscapes connects to the Searchers, as does the shocking discovery of a burned out homestead.
Scott:So even George Lucas is.
Scott:There's a lot of parallels there.
Speaker B:And Han kind of like Martin and Ethan.
Scott:Yeah.
Scott:So there's, there's the anti hero and Han Solo was brought up as like another kind of example of an anti hero.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Scott:And so I just love, you know, I didn't grow up watching the Searchers like, like you did.
Scott:But you know, when I did watch it and learning about the influences that it had on, on cinema and actors and directors and writers, it's absolutely incredible.
Speaker B:And I will say there are other things that Ford has done in this movie that kind of push back against the racism theme.
Speaker B:In the movie, Martin is half white, half American Indian.
Speaker B:In the book he's not.
Speaker B:And in the movie he marries the girl.
Speaker B:He marries Laurie, or he's going to marry Laurie.
Speaker B:In the book, Lori marries the other guy.
Speaker B:Lori marries the other guy in the movie that she was going to marry and she doesn't because Martin shows up and she remembers how much she loves Martin.
Speaker B:But here's a white girl wanting to marry a boy who's half white and half American Indian.
Speaker B:And that is not even an issue for her.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So he's pushing back against this racism thing to the point that he's changing the book for the movie that she is not going to marry the white man.
Speaker B:She's going to wait for Martin when he's done with this search.
Speaker B:She's going to wait for him even though it's putting her life on pause and she's getting very upset by it.
Speaker B:What else is also interesting?
Speaker B:It is this is the time where Ford has to set the scenes with American Indians and the way they dress.
Speaker B:He hired a lot of real American Indians to play these people.
Speaker B:They had.
Speaker B:They don't dress quite as Commanche dressed.
Speaker B:They dress much more in a idea of what American Indians look like.
Speaker B:I will say that's true about the cowboys as well.
Speaker B:The way the cowboys look in this movie is not the way real cowboys looked in the west, but they they use this Hollywood ease of it.
Speaker B:Now Scar, the main character of Scar is not American Indian.
Scott:Yeah, Australian.
Speaker B:He's Australian.
Speaker B:And so they are using red face in this movie.
Speaker B:So if that is a conversation for sure that a Turner Classic Movies can have because you can talk about red, flat face, yellow face, blackface actors who are putting makeup on to play certain characters.
Speaker B:It's still done today.
Speaker B:But it's one of those things like they weren't, they were doing it because they didn't hire people who really were of that ethnic background.
Speaker B: hat is of the time, is of the: Speaker B:But as far as John Ford was really trying in my opinion, his screenwriters to make this look as fair as what this battle was for the American land at the time between two groups of people that really were fighting for their lives at time and did terrible things to each other.
Speaker B:And this was driving in the hatred of each group.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And I think in the end he tries to tell you the only thing that really does overcome that is love.
Speaker B:And you have to really forgive all of that and, and go for the love.
Speaker B:I do think it's John Wayne's finest performance.
Speaker B:I do think he makes a huge arc here.
Speaker B:I think he shows you real emotion and passion.
Speaker B:He's older in this movie, which I think he's supposed to be.
Speaker B:And I think that ruggedness shows a lot to him.
Speaker B:I think he, he looks good on the horse, he rides well.
Speaker B:I think he, he carries his weapons well.
Speaker B:I think he does a really good job with all of that authenticity.
Speaker B:But I don't.
Speaker B:He doesn't get the Oscar for it.
Speaker B:There is not a lot of recognition for it at the time.
Speaker B:It's more appreciated now after the fact.
Speaker B:And I do think when it comes to John Wayne, when I think of him, it is my number one John Wayne movie because of this performance.
Speaker B:It's also my top western of all time.
Speaker B:The Searchers now is regarded as that by a lot of people.
Speaker B:So it's hard to even find memorabilia from it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a very high priced movie poster.
Speaker B:It's very like to find the book.
Speaker B:Like I have an original book with dust cover that's expensive and hard to find because it.
Speaker B:What it has grown into not at the time, but what it has become.
Speaker B:And because of that I'm proud to talk about it and I'm proud of John Wayne's performance in it.
Scott:Yeah, it was.
Scott:It's an incredible movie.
Scott:Right.
Scott:I hadn't seen it until we did our top 10 John Wayne movies.
Scott:And if you guys are curious about that, I'll leave a link to, to the top 10 John Wayne.
Scott:You can see if you agree with us on, on what we think his top 10 movies are of all time and let us know what you think of the Searchers and, and if you think that we, we left any potential good anti hero comparisons out for Ethan Edwards because John Wayne I think really nailed that role.
Scott:He was in his prime in, in his acting career and I think it kind of really epitomizes what a good anti hero can be in cinema and, and what that can portray.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it was really brave of him to do it.
Speaker B:I think it was really brave of him to play that part as mean and as rough and as, as strong as he was with his, with the negative side of him.
Speaker B:And you've got some great actors and actresses in this too.
Speaker B:I mean Natalie Wood at the time, what's up and coming and becomes a great actress in her time.
Speaker B:Jeff Hunter who plays Martin is actually, it's one of his only movies because he dies as after in middle age.
Speaker B:But he's has the big blue eyes and I think he plays his role very well as Martin beside John Wayne.
Speaker B:You're going to get the same cast of characters.
Speaker B:You get Ward Bond and you get Harry Carey Jr.
Speaker B:In this who's very good as well.
Speaker B:So John Ford hired some really great actors for this and the scenery is just impressive.
Speaker B:Someday Walk With History will get out there to Monument Valley.
Speaker B:There are people who do recreate some of those scenes of him, of Ethan Edwards kneeling down, looking over the valley, watching the American Indians coming in as they search for them and they lose them and they find them and they search for them.
Speaker B:Those iconic places are still around today and today and it is so beautiful, a beautiful part of America.
Scott: oday, we've explored how this: Scott:Through Ethan Edwards, one of cinema's most compelling anti heroes.
Scott:John Wayne's portrayal of Ethan Edwards broke away from his typical heroic roles, giving us a character whose obsessive quest walks a fine line between determination and darkness.
Scott:This film's impact continues to echo through modern cinema.
Scott:From George Lucas Star wars to Breaking Bad's finale and even Spielberg's personal ritual of watching it before starting each new project, the Searchers remains a testament, testament to how a Western can transcend its genre and become a profound commentary on American identity and human nature.
Scott:All right, well, thank you so much for joining us and join us on our next Watch with History.
Speaker B:Yeah, thank you.
Scott:This has been a Walk with History production.
Scott:Talk with History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny.
Scott:Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.
Scott:Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.
Scott:Talk with History supports by our fans@thehistoryroadtrip.com our eternal thanks to those providing funding to help keep us going.
Scott:Thank you to Doug McLiverty, Larry Myers, and Patrick Benny.
Scott:Make sure you hit that follow button in your podcast player and we'll talk.
Narrator:To you next time.
