Crazy Horse: History of the man, the myth, the monument

Jenn: 00:00:00

And another thing that's very significant about Crazy Horse is

Jenn: 00:00:03

he's taken by his people and no one knows exactly where he's buried.

Scott: 00:00:19

Welcome to Talk With History.

Scott: 00:00:21

I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Scott: 00:00:24

Hello.

Scott: 00:00:25

On this podcast, we give you insights into our history inspired bold travels,

Scott: 00:00:29

YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations

Scott: 00:00:33

with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

Scott: 00:00:39

I'm Jen.

Scott: 00:00:40

Again, last week I did not tell a joke, but we had a listener email

Scott: 00:00:46

us with a solid History Dad joke.

Scott: 00:00:49

Oh gosh.

Scott: 00:00:50

So this is from Susie Q.

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Susie Q actually left us a review before.

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Alright, so here's the joke.

Scott: 00:00:56

Where did the Lone Ranger take his trash?

Jenn: 00:01:02

I don't know.

Scott: 00:01:03

To the dump, to the dump, to the dump, dump, dump.

Scott: 00:01:07

Again, if you're listening and that either made you roll your eyes or

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you have a better joke to tell, feel free to reach out to us through

Scott: 00:01:15

our website at talkwithhistory.

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com.

Scott: 00:01:17

Susie Q, I appreciate you submitting that joke.

Scott: 00:01:20

It made me laugh when I got it.

Scott: 00:01:21

So we also had got a couple, we got two new reviews.

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So we got a review from Goody 1128.

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Uh, five star review says, what a cool idea for a podcast sharing personal

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experiences and insights and bringing the listener along for the ride.

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So glad I found this show and another five star review from mood

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fixer, uh, five stars brilliant.

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It is estimated there are two and a half million podcast

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shows currently in the world.

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The topics of a podcast are virtually any endless and yet I stumbled onto this

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podcast and found it to be brilliant, educational, entertaining, and enjoyable.

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little bit of history buff myself would have never thought to actually

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seek out a podcast on history.

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I'm glad I found this.

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You guys are doing a great job, particularly like the episode

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on the ghosts of Gettysburg.

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That seemed to be a popular one.

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We've had a couple people say that and I've seen the downloads

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for that particular podcast.

Scott: 00:02:16

Well, we're

Jenn: 00:02:16

coming into October.

Jenn: 00:02:18

So, and I think as any historian will tell you, ghost stories are always Route

Scott: 00:02:22

rooted in history in history.

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Well in Gettysburg is a popular subject, too So we really appreciate the reviews,

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you know as you share this podcast, or if you're a new listener Please feel to

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drop us a review good or bad We love the good ones, but I appreciate the feedback

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in any form or fashion that we can get

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so today We're exploring the remarkable life and enduring significance of

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crazy horse the revered Native American leader of the Oglala Lakota tribe.

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From his early years during a tumultuous era of westward expansion to his

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pivotal role in battles such as the Fetterman fight and the legendary

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Battle of Little Bighorn, Crazy Horse's courage and leadership left

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an indelible mark on American history.

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And we're also going to talk about our visit to the awe inspiring Crazy Horse

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Monument in South Dakota's Black Hills.

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This colossal sculpture, a work in progress, is dedicated to honoring

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Crazy Horse's memory and his unwavering commitment to preserving

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Lakota culture and traditions.

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So Jen, let's kind of start off by talking about the man, the myth.

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the legend that

Jenn: 00:03:39

is Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:03:40

Sure.

Jenn: 00:03:40

So, um, he was born in 1840 around the Rapid City Black Hills area.

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When he was born, um, his, his name given to him was Among the Trees

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because he was kind of one with nature.

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Uh, his name will grow to Crazy Horse, which is his, his real name is His Horse

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is Crazy, but it becomes Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:04:01

Um, and he's just, this is the 1840s.

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So this is the beginning of all of this.

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encroachment, uh, homesteading, Oregon Trail reservation, this is where

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you're going to get all this kind of

Scott: 00:04:15

hardship.

Scott: 00:04:16

Yeah, west westward expansion, the 49er gold rush, all that stuff.

Jenn: 00:04:20

So he's very much brought up in that.

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And when you think of him as a warrior, as a fighter, you know, he's taken

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up arms, he's known for taking up arms against the federal government

Jenn: 00:04:31

fighting against this encroachment.

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And when we talk about encroachment, we talk about the

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American Indians had been given.

Jenn: 00:04:39

certain areas to live reservations through certain treaties.

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Uh, the most significant is the treaty of Fort Laramie and we've been to Fort

Jenn: 00:04:46

Laramie and that treaty gave the Lakota Sioux the land of the Black Hills.

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And when it's encroached upon, when they discover gold, you know, Crazy

Jenn: 00:04:59

horse is significant in that fight back.

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And so the Lakota Siouxs, you know, will move westward Into the

Jenn: 00:05:06

Montana area and that's when you're gonna get the Fetterman massacre.

Jenn: 00:05:09

That's where they the American Indians will take out a complete section of army

Jenn: 00:05:15

soldiers and Crazy Horse is the leader.

Jenn: 00:05:18

And then of course, Battle of Little Bighorn.

Jenn: 00:05:20

Yeah.

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And if, if you're curious to hear more about Fort Laramie, some

Scott: 00:05:24

of those treaties or the Battle of Little Bighorn, we actually

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have previous episodes on those.

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So after you're done listening to this episode, we encourage you to

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go back and listen to our previous episodes specifically on those events.

Jenn: 00:05:34

But what comes of this is he's given, he has great respect.

Jenn: 00:05:38

He is, you think, when you think of crazy horse, I want you to

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think of like George Washington.

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Like this is a person who is commanding great respect from having done the

Jenn: 00:05:49

deed, from having been there, from having led people and survived.

Jenn: 00:05:53

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:05:54

I mean,

Scott: 00:05:54

he's right up there with Sitting Bull, right?

Scott: 00:05:56

I mean, these are, these are names that even just the average

Scott: 00:05:59

American learned kind of growing up.

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You know, learning American history.

Scott: 00:06:03

Yes.

Jenn: 00:06:03

He's more, he's more of a warrior.

Jenn: 00:06:05

Um, and of course, uh, Crazy Horse would never be a chief.

Jenn: 00:06:09

He's young.

Jenn: 00:06:10

Gotcha.

Jenn: 00:06:10

But he's, he's a warrior.

Jenn: 00:06:12

And when we talk about Bighorn, how he leads the fight and he leads it

Jenn: 00:06:16

between two brigades of army soldiers as they're shooting at him and he doesn't

Jenn: 00:06:19

get shot at all, he becomes a myth.

Jenn: 00:06:23

Right.

Jenn: 00:06:23

It's just like George Washington who would lead from the front and never get shot.

Jenn: 00:06:26

It becomes this kind of myth to inspire your men to fight.

Jenn: 00:06:30

And they believe that like the, the warriors, the Lakota warriors

Jenn: 00:06:33

were so inspired by him, uh, that that's why he's depicted on this

Scott: 00:06:38

monument.

Scott: 00:06:39

Yeah.

Scott: 00:06:39

And I, and I believe too, that even after kind of some of these fights, like

Scott: 00:06:44

as kind of the, the native Americans choice, right, they won the couple

Scott: 00:06:51

of these battles and all of a sudden.

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Yeah.

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the, the United States at the time said, Oh, hell no.

Scott: 00:06:57

Right.

Scott: 00:06:57

And then they sent a ton of soldiers out and they, and they squash it

Scott: 00:07:00

right away for right or wrong, you know, and, and, and many eyes see it

Scott: 00:07:05

as being kind of wrong and depending on what lens you view it through.

Scott: 00:07:11

But one of the things I believe that, and correct me if I'm wrong, that, that

Scott: 00:07:14

crazy horse was known for was he really And I think you mentioned it, like,

Scott: 00:07:19

he never touched a pen, he always kind of stuck to his guns about, you know,

Scott: 00:07:25

Native American culture, and no, this is my, this is our land, you guys gave it.

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He kind of never gave in.

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He never signs his treaty.

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That was kind of the final thing that kind of put him into that legendary

Scott: 00:07:35

status, plus how he was caught and killed.

Jenn: 00:07:37

So we'll talk about.

Jenn: 00:07:38

more of that in the controversy of the monument, but so if you think about

Jenn: 00:07:42

Battle of the Bighorn, 1876, he's there one year later for what they call

Jenn: 00:07:47

the, um, the last sun dance of 1877.

Jenn: 00:07:51

So a year later, he goes to the area of Battle of the Bighorn around August.

Jenn: 00:07:55

And then he, he realizes how much the army is retaliating against

Jenn: 00:07:59

his people and killing his people.

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So he surrenders.

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And he's taken to, um, Fort Robinson in Nebraska and he

Jenn: 00:08:07

is killed September 5th, 1877.

Jenn: 00:08:10

So if you think about August is the one year anniversary of Little Bighorn

Jenn: 00:08:14

and he's killed not even a month later.

Jenn: 00:08:17

So he's taken to the fort and when he gets into the guardhouse, uh, he

Jenn: 00:08:23

kind of scuffles with the soldier and the soldier bayonets him.

Scott: 00:08:27

Yeah.

Scott: 00:08:27

So, so actually the day after this podcast will be released will be the anniversary

Jenn: 00:08:32

of his death.

Jenn: 00:08:32

Of his death.

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And his last known words are, I have spoken.

Jenn: 00:08:36

And another thing that's very significant about crazy horse is

Jenn: 00:08:39

he's taken by his people and no one knows exactly where he's buried.

Jenn: 00:08:43

Oh, I didn't know that.

Jenn: 00:08:43

Yep.

Jenn: 00:08:44

So there's four locations.

Jenn: 00:08:45

It could be, um, most likely it's a Creek by wounded knee.

Jenn: 00:08:50

Cause, uh, in South Dakota, but no one knows he, they protected him and

Jenn: 00:08:55

they, you know, he didn't, he didn't want, well, I'll talk more about this.

Jenn: 00:08:59

He, there's no photographs of crazy horse.

Jenn: 00:09:01

He didn't ever want his picture taken.

Jenn: 00:09:02

He didn't ever want his, he never touched a pen.

Jenn: 00:09:05

He never signed a treaty.

Jenn: 00:09:06

He didn't want anyone to know where he was buried, like besides his people.

Jenn: 00:09:10

And so he very much held true to his heritage and his way of life.

Scott: 00:09:15

Yeah.

Scott: 00:09:15

And you see it with a lot of legends, right?

Scott: 00:09:17

They kind of, they die young, right?

Scott: 00:09:19

They're kind of, they burn bright, die young.

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And he was definitely one of those.

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And I think to your point leads into kind of why he was picked

Scott: 00:09:26

as the subject of the monument.

Jenn: 00:09:28

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:09:28

So let's talk about the memorial.

Jenn: 00:09:30

So you, you get this mountain in South Dakota, it's only 17 miles away

Jenn: 00:09:35

from Rushmore and it's private land.

Jenn: 00:09:39

So Chief Henry Standing Bear had picked out this mountain, uh, because

Jenn: 00:09:44

it's a sacred mountain and he had traded 900 acres of his land for this

Jenn: 00:09:49

mountain with the federal government.

Jenn: 00:09:51

And the federal government had agreed to it.

Jenn: 00:09:53

And then he had met the sculptor at the World's Fair, and he had gotten

Jenn: 00:09:59

some notoriety at the World's Fair, and the sculptor had helped on Rushmore.

Jenn: 00:10:02

So he had some, uh, experience.

Jenn: 00:10:05

And he asks him if he will...

Jenn: 00:10:07

sculpt this mountain into crazy horse.

Jenn: 00:10:10

And they, well, at first, I'm not sure who, and they do a lot

Jenn: 00:10:14

of discussion about crazy horse.

Jenn: 00:10:15

And again, like we said, this is a person who really does depict the

Jenn: 00:10:19

Ogallala Lakota Sioux way of life.

Jenn: 00:10:23

And they really wanted him to be the center of that monument.

Jenn: 00:10:27

So, um, that's why he's depicted.

Jenn: 00:10:29

He's riding a horse, he's pointing out, and he's supposed to be pointing at one.

Jenn: 00:10:34

Time a crazy horse was asked where are your lands and he said it's

Jenn: 00:10:38

where my dead lie And he's supposed to be pointing out where his dead

Scott: 00:10:41

lie You know if you're gonna pick such and kind of an epic monument to the

Scott: 00:10:46

Native American culture at the time I mean, he really is like that embodiment.

Scott: 00:10:51

He's I mean you kind of In a romantic way kind of he's like a James Dean,

Scott: 00:10:56

you know, but but he really actually did stuff He was out there fighting and

Scott: 00:11:00

leading and and doing all the real real stuff, you know So much more historically

Scott: 00:11:05

significant, but he kind of had that that aura about him And so you could when the

Scott: 00:11:10

more you learn about it when we went to visit the monument and we walk through

Scott: 00:11:14

the visitor center and learned more about you know, crazy horse and the the

Scott: 00:11:19

artist who ended up kind of you know, Uh, starting the sculpture and all that stuff.

Scott: 00:11:24

It really was neat to learn about.

Jenn: 00:11:26

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:11:26

And you think Crazy Horse is killed at 36, 37.

Jenn: 00:11:29

No one knows exactly his age, but so the monument is such a young man, right?

Jenn: 00:11:35

And he's very, he's shirtless.

Jenn: 00:11:37

So you see all his muscles.

Jenn: 00:11:38

He's very like, you know, he looks like he is a powerful.

Jenn: 00:11:43

man of the people.

Jenn: 00:11:45

And I think it's such a great depiction of him because it shows

Jenn: 00:11:48

this youth and this possibility of life and this wanting to be one with,

Jenn: 00:11:53

uh, with the land and the people.

Scott: 00:11:55

Yeah.

Scott: 00:11:56

Just this, this spirit that kind of embodied, you know, everything around

Scott: 00:12:00

them, his hair's flowing behind him and the horse does look kind of crazy.

Scott: 00:12:03

The horse is like going, it's really moving, you know, in, in.

Scott: 00:12:09

We, you see a lot of sketches of what it eventually will look like because

Scott: 00:12:12

I think you mentioned the video.

Scott: 00:12:14

It's been going on for

Jenn: 00:12:15

75 years.

Jenn: 00:12:16

75 years.

Jenn: 00:12:16

We'll talk about that.

Jenn: 00:12:18

So like I said, it's commissioned by Henry Standing Bear.

Jenn: 00:12:21

He's a, he's a Lakota elder and he commissions at June 3rd, uh,

Jenn: 00:12:25

1948 and it's, he commissions Kordchoff Jolkowski and Kordchoff.

Jenn: 00:12:32

Joel, Joel Kovsky, again, is a sculptor that helps on Rushmore.

Jenn: 00:12:36

And he is kind of coming into his own and has some examples of his sculpting at the

Jenn: 00:12:41

World's Fair, which Sandy Bear sees it.

Jenn: 00:12:43

So he invites, um, Joel Kovsky to South Dakota and, you know, present some of

Jenn: 00:12:50

this whole idea and he agrees to it.

Jenn: 00:12:53

And he brings his wife out, Ruth, they ended up having 10 children

Jenn: 00:12:57

and they work on it until he dies.

Jenn: 00:12:59

She works on it until she dies.

Jenn: 00:13:01

And right now.

Jenn: 00:13:02

their children and grandchildren are the ones who are still leading up the the

Jenn: 00:13:06

building the sculpting of the monument.

Jenn: 00:13:09

Um, it's operated by the Crazy Horse Memorial Foundation and what's in But it's

Jenn: 00:13:14

taken so long and why it's so significant is this is a nonprofit and they don't

Jenn: 00:13:18

accept any federal or state funding.

Jenn: 00:13:21

So when you think of like Rushmore didn't take that long because it was completely

Jenn: 00:13:25

funded by the federal government.

Jenn: 00:13:26

We had all this money to build it, but crazy horse doesn't.

Jenn: 00:13:30

Crazy horse has to go through private donations.

Jenn: 00:13:33

It has a foundation.

Jenn: 00:13:35

So everyone who visits crazy horse.

Jenn: 00:13:37

All of your money that you're paying, your entrance fee, your

Jenn: 00:13:41

gift shop, anything you buy there all goes into building Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:13:45

And we'll put the link in the podcast here if you'd like to donate to Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:13:50

Since it is a non profit, every donation

Scott: 00:13:52

helps.

Scott: 00:13:52

Yeah, we actually did get, and that was, it was kind of

Scott: 00:13:54

a neat response to the video.

Scott: 00:13:56

And I, again, I always encourage folks to go watch the video, but it

Scott: 00:14:00

was a neat response because we didn't initially have that, that link in there.

Scott: 00:14:04

And people started asking, like, Hey, is there somewhere I can donate?

Scott: 00:14:08

And we, so we scrambled, we put the link in there.

Scott: 00:14:10

So there in the video description, it'll be in the podcast show

Scott: 00:14:13

notes description as well.

Scott: 00:14:14

Yeah.

Scott: 00:14:14

So

Jenn: 00:14:14

if you go visit, uh, you pay by car as you go in.

Jenn: 00:14:17

So that's all you, it's, it's really easy how you gain your entrance into the.

Jenn: 00:14:22

monument area, but when it's complete, it'll be the second tallest statue

Jenn: 00:14:27

in the world behind one in India.

Jenn: 00:14:30

It's built out of Thunderhead Mountain, which I told Lutz again

Jenn: 00:14:33

before is sacred land of the Black Hills of the Lakota Sioux.

Jenn: 00:14:37

It's going to be six hundred and.

Jenn: 00:14:39

40 feet long, 560 feet high.

Jenn: 00:14:42

And his arm is going to stretch out.

Jenn: 00:14:44

Like I said, his arm is pointing out 263 feet.

Jenn: 00:14:48

Now his face is about 87 feet long.

Jenn: 00:14:52

And when you're like, okay, that's great.

Jenn: 00:14:55

Well, Each president on Mount Rushmore is 60 feet long.

Jenn: 00:14:59

So if you think how significant, if you've ever been to Rushmore and seen

Jenn: 00:15:03

how big that looks, Crazy Horse is going to be almost a third bigger

Jenn: 00:15:08

and his monument is 360 degrees.

Jenn: 00:15:12

It's a full, it's his whole body wrapped around.

Jenn: 00:15:15

So unlike Rushmore, that's just one sided.

Jenn: 00:15:18

It's going to be a completely.

Jenn: 00:15:20

Um, Circular.

Jenn: 00:15:21

So that's going to be pretty

Scott: 00:15:22

cool.

Scott: 00:15:22

Yeah.

Scott: 00:15:22

One of the cool things we were able to show in the video was

Scott: 00:15:25

kind of like a Google Maps view.

Scott: 00:15:28

And actually that's probably one of the best views that you can get is

Scott: 00:15:30

you just go into Google Maps or Apple Maps and look up Crazy Horse Monument.

Scott: 00:15:33

You kind of look at the 360, you know.

Scott: 00:15:36

Picture of it this 3d picture of it and it's actually pretty

Scott: 00:15:39

close to what it looks like today.

Jenn: 00:15:40

Yeah Yeah, and like I said in 1948, they thought oh, it's gonna take

Jenn: 00:15:43

us 30 years And now it's been 75 years and as of today, there is no timeline

Jenn: 00:15:49

for completion But there is a plan there is more and I want people to understand

Jenn: 00:15:54

that there's more than just the monument That is the plan for the whole area The

Jenn: 00:16:00

plan is for it to be this educational cultural center with the monument in

Jenn: 00:16:05

that's in the center of that whole plan.

Jenn: 00:16:08

And they want a Native American museum.

Jenn: 00:16:10

They want a Native American cultural center.

Jenn: 00:16:12

They want a University of South Dakota satellite campus, plus an Indian

Jenn: 00:16:15

University of North America there.

Jenn: 00:16:18

And so if you see the model in the video, it'll show like the buildings and like

Jenn: 00:16:23

a football field and like dormitories.

Jenn: 00:16:26

And it's a whole campus, the whole campus.

Jenn: 00:16:28

They want this whole center with Crazy Horse as.

Jenn: 00:16:31

This, the monument or memorial, you can use the words interchangeably.

Jenn: 00:16:35

I've seen monument and memorial for both, um, in the center.

Jenn: 00:16:39

Yeah,

Scott: 00:16:40

it's, uh.

Scott: 00:16:42

It really was neat.

Scott: 00:16:43

Now, there was one thing that we didn't do while we were there, is you can

Scott: 00:16:47

actually take like a bus tour up, up closer to the actual monument itself.

Scott: 00:16:53

And I think there's some, like, kind of things you can go inside

Scott: 00:16:55

and displays up there that we didn't, we didn't go see when

Jenn: 00:16:58

we saw it.

Jenn: 00:16:59

Yeah, so if you visit, I want to suggest a couple things.

Jenn: 00:17:01

If you visit, again, you're going to pay your entrance fee going in.

Jenn: 00:17:04

The parking lot, I think, has some of the best views of Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:17:07

It really does.

Jenn: 00:17:07

Like once you get out of your car, you're like, Oh my gosh, it's, it's

Jenn: 00:17:10

one of the most beautiful views of it, even from inside the building.

Jenn: 00:17:13

The parking lot probably has one of the best views.

Jenn: 00:17:16

There's a movie.

Jenn: 00:17:16

Of course, when you first walk in, it's going to give you all of this background

Jenn: 00:17:20

and talk about the sculpture and, uh, Standing Bear and where it is at today.

Jenn: 00:17:25

And then of course, like you said, there's a bus tour to the top, but at the actual,

Jenn: 00:17:30

um, visitor center, there's a lot of artifacts and we show those in the video.

Jenn: 00:17:35

There's a lot of, uh, about the, um, It's the Lakota way of life

Jenn: 00:17:39

and just Western way of life.

Jenn: 00:17:41

They also honor some code talkers from World War II.

Jenn: 00:17:45

And then we had at the time there were some women of the Lakota who were doing

Jenn: 00:17:51

some medicine dances and they were depicting like, um, a classic medicine

Jenn: 00:17:55

dance and then a modern medicine dance.

Jenn: 00:17:58

There's a gift shop.

Jenn: 00:17:59

There's a place

Scott: 00:17:59

to eat.

Scott: 00:18:00

Yeah, there's, there's Western art.

Scott: 00:18:01

They actually had a whole room.

Scott: 00:18:03

One of the kind of the large windowed areas had all the

Scott: 00:18:07

survivors of Little Bighorn.

Scott: 00:18:10

Yeah.

Scott: 00:18:10

So I had pictures of all the men, the warriors that were

Scott: 00:18:12

survivors of Little Bighorn.

Scott: 00:18:14

That was really neat.

Scott: 00:18:15

It was beautiful.

Scott: 00:18:16

It was beautiful.

Scott: 00:18:17

And I love those kind of, kind of intimate portraits, right?

Scott: 00:18:21

These were all paintings, right?

Scott: 00:18:23

You know, none of them were really photographs.

Scott: 00:18:25

But it was cool.

Scott: 00:18:26

You could see Sitting Bull.

Scott: 00:18:26

You could see all these different warriors that were survivors.

Scott: 00:18:30

That was really neat.

Scott: 00:18:31

And it's them basically facing the monument.

Scott: 00:18:34

Yeah.

Scott: 00:18:34

And so that was really cool setting to kind of see

Jenn: 00:18:39

all of that.

Jenn: 00:18:39

It is neat.

Jenn: 00:18:40

And they have, um, so then we're going to start to get into

Jenn: 00:18:44

a little of the controversy.

Jenn: 00:18:45

Yeah.

Jenn: 00:18:45

So tell us about the controversy.

Jenn: 00:18:47

So what else is depicted at the visitor center is, uh, Joe Kofsky's.

Jenn: 00:18:52

Like his sculpture workshop and kind of monuments of him, faces of him,

Jenn: 00:18:58

and so people of the Lakota Sioux and people in general are like, well,

Jenn: 00:19:02

who gets to speak for Crazy Horse?

Jenn: 00:19:05

Is this white man the one who gets to speak for Crazy Horse?

Jenn: 00:19:08

And the monument is now becoming more of a tribute, they feel, to the Joufkovsky

Jenn: 00:19:13

family instead of to Crazy Horse himself.

Jenn: 00:19:17

And because he gets to depict how Crazy Horse looks and he gets to

Jenn: 00:19:21

depict how, because again, I told you there's no photographs of Crazy

Jenn: 00:19:24

Horse, he gets to depict all this.

Jenn: 00:19:26

Is it most, is it a white man getting to have the, the final say over

Jenn: 00:19:31

a man who didn't want to ever be photographed or a picture taken of?

Jenn: 00:19:38

So does this really honor Crazy Horse who really never wanted to be depicted in a

Jenn: 00:19:44

way that you could see him physically?

Jenn: 00:19:46

So there's a lot of controversy around that.

Jenn: 00:19:49

Um, there's also controversy.

Jenn: 00:19:51

American Indians do not believe in ever, you know, defacing a mountain.

Jenn: 00:19:56

Oh, interesting.

Jenn: 00:19:57

So there, you know, they are, they're changing the nature of it.

Jenn: 00:20:01

So there's a lot of controversy around that.

Jenn: 00:20:04

And, uh, And then, uh, Standing Bear kind of did this on his own.

Jenn: 00:20:10

Oh, really?

Jenn: 00:20:11

So, he didn't, uh, he didn't consult with Crazy Horse, uh, with, uh, Crazy

Jenn: 00:20:15

Horse's family, which in, uh, in Indian culture, that, it would dictate that.

Jenn: 00:20:20

It would dictate a consensus from the tribe.

Scott: 00:20:23

Yeah, that's, I mean, I, I can understand that, right?

Scott: 00:20:25

I, I mean, God, there's, there's, if you think about it, there's

Scott: 00:20:29

really two sides to this.

Scott: 00:20:32

It's capturing that, that culture, that spirit, right?

Scott: 00:20:35

This is a massive effort.

Scott: 00:20:36

And even today in its unfinished form, it really does kind

Scott: 00:20:40

of keep that flame burning.

Scott: 00:20:42

Yes, it brings awareness.

Scott: 00:20:43

It does.

Scott: 00:20:43

It brings awareness, but at the same time, you know, the genesis of

Scott: 00:20:46

it, you know, To your point, right?

Scott: 00:20:50

He kind of should have consulted the family.

Scott: 00:20:52

Did the family want this?

Scott: 00:20:53

If the family had said no, what would he have, would he have picked someone else?

Scott: 00:20:56

Would he have picked Sitting Bull?

Scott: 00:20:57

I don't know.

Scott: 00:20:57

I don't know.

Jenn: 00:20:58

And, and is it an insult to Crazy Horse who never wanted to be photographed?

Jenn: 00:21:02

And now you're making him a permanent mountain?

Jenn: 00:21:05

Like, you're supposed to be honoring Crazy Horse.

Jenn: 00:21:07

Is it really, is it an honor for him?

Scott: 00:21:09

Yeah, that's an, that's an interesting thing to think about.

Scott: 00:21:12

Um, you know, if, if you feel like you're honoring him, but...

Scott: 00:21:17

You're not, you know, others aren't sure if he would feel honored by that.

Jenn: 00:21:20

Yes.

Jenn: 00:21:20

Yes.

Jenn: 00:21:21

So just things to think about.

Jenn: 00:21:23

But I, you know, you and I both always talk about this as a historian.

Jenn: 00:21:26

We like the conversation.

Jenn: 00:21:27

Sure.

Jenn: 00:21:28

Right.

Jenn: 00:21:28

And, uh, bringing awareness to the conversation, bring awareness

Jenn: 00:21:32

to his life, bringing awareness to the Lakota Sioux way of life.

Jenn: 00:21:36

and their struggles throughout history, I think, if anything,

Jenn: 00:21:39

that monument does that.

Scott: 00:21:41

Oh, 100%.

Scott: 00:21:42

I mean, it's, like anything else, it's, it's a tourist attraction.

Scott: 00:21:45

Yeah, it's right

Jenn: 00:21:45

beside Richmond, so most people will go.

Scott: 00:21:48

Yeah, that attraction will bring in people, and those people

Scott: 00:21:50

will learn something about that culture and that way of life.

Scott: 00:21:54

Yeah, it.

Scott: 00:21:55

Uh, I really enjoyed it.

Scott: 00:21:56

I don't think I had done it when I was a kid.

Scott: 00:21:59

Um, I had seen Rushmore when I was a teenager growing up in California.

Scott: 00:22:02

We had made a trip out there with family in Montana, but I don't

Scott: 00:22:05

remember doing crazy horror.

Scott: 00:22:07

So that was really neat for me to see and for us to bring the kids.

Scott: 00:22:09

And I had seen it

Jenn: 00:22:10

since I was a kid growing up in Wyoming.

Jenn: 00:22:12

So it was neat for me to see how it has changed because in the eighties

Jenn: 00:22:17

the face wasn't done like it is

Scott: 00:22:19

today.

Scott: 00:22:19

Yeah.

Scott: 00:22:20

That was really neat.

Scott: 00:22:21

So for those listening, I hope you've gained a deeper understanding of the

Scott: 00:22:25

significance of Crazy Horse in the context of Native American history

Scott: 00:22:30

and the broader American narrative.

Scott: 00:22:33

As we continue our journey through the annals of history, remember that these

Scott: 00:22:36

stories are not just about the past.

Scott: 00:22:38

They are a reflection of the present and a guide to the future.

Scott: 00:22:42

So join us next time as we unravel more fascinating history tales from

Scott: 00:22:46

the pages of history on this podcast.

Scott: 00:22:50

If you want to support the future of this podcast, you can

Scott: 00:22:52

do that over at topofhistory.

Scott: 00:22:54

com slash support.

Scott: 00:22:56

We rely on you community to grow and we appreciate you all every day.

Scott: 00:23:01

We'll talk to you next time.